snark squad | where nostalgia comes to die

Angel S03 E19 – Pronouns

and on November 12, 2013 · 86 comments in Angel,Season 3,TV

Previously: Younger Gunn sold his soul for a truck, Wesley was released from the hospital with nobody to collect him, and Angel performed the feelsiest crib-dismantling of ever.

The Price

Sweeney: The episode starts with a lot of shots of Los Angeles before taking us back to Brooding Hotel, where the gang is patching up the earthquake damaged hotel and Groo is pleading with Angel to heed his advice…on the new color selection. I won’t lie, I’m kind of a fan of Groo. Not in the sense that I actually care a great deal what happens to him, but he’s kind of precious and amusing.

Lorraine: He was a little off-putting at first, especially in the sense of the love triangle and cockblocking, but I’m warming to him as well.

Sweeney: Angel says no and stops Gunn from throwing away something that is seriously charred. He just wants everything “the way it was.” Hugs. Cordelia says their little team can’t actually do the kind of repairs to make that happened and makes a brief reference to his final Sunnydale residence in a “rotted out mansion.” She trails off when he’s getting feelsy over a snowglobe he found in the rubble. He bought it for Connor because it doesn’t snow in California and he might like to look at it. Everyone gets really awkward because it’s one of those moments where you want to be comforting and helpful but what do you even say?

Kirsti: Truth. Meanwhile, I’m kind of distracted by the giant crack in the wall because cracks in the wall tend to end badly in my universe:

Lor: YES. OH GOD. Good Who reference, friend.

Sweeney: Angel realizes this and promptly suggests that they all get back to actual work, instead of construction work. They point out that they haven’t been getting business, so Angel goes to wait for walk-ins, which is Cordelia’s cue to inform us that it’s a Sunday. That’s a sweet little reminder that the gang really is a family unit. It’s Sunday and they have no work to do, so what’s everybody doing? Trying to repair Angel’s destroyed room. It makes me even sadder for the absent member of the family, but I’m trying to concentrate on the good family feels because we need good feels.

Downstairs, contrary to Cordelia’s, “Not on Sundays” prediction, there is, in fact, a walk-in. He calls out, looking for someone at Angel Investigations and gets creeped out by the remnants of the pentagram from the spell that gave Sahjhan solid form. While he’s ringing the bell we see a clear squirrel-sized insect-looking thing crawling about. It kind of reminds me of the demonic consequence of Buffy’s resurrection spell, only with a clearer form – that was more blobby. Just before Angel returns, the clear thing jumps inside Sunday Walk-In’s face. He turns around, looking dazed, and awkwardly tells Angel that “we” have to go. Angel assumes he was spooked by the pentagram. Electric Cellos.

After the credits, Cordelia comes downstairs and tries to get Angel to open up about all the things that happened while she was gone, particularly the details of the spell they used so she can be prepared for the primordial repercussions. (She says “cosmic price” but no “the” so I’m reserving the star to see if it’s properly earned by somebody else later on.) (Also, also, does this mean the clear insect demon is a CROSSOVER MAGIC demon?)(L: A+ being good at TV, girl!) She mentions that the person who would be best at sorting that out is now off the team and that makes him snap. She then asks him why he didn’t call and let her be there for him and does some feels venting of her own, mentioning her useful connection to The Powers That Be Contriving and her new demon status. The conversation ends with Angel saying that she can do something for him: find him a case to work on.

Seizure Cut to Sunday Walk-In looking awful while drinking ALL THE PEACH SMOOTHIES at a restaurant and getting super ragey and violent when they refuse to give him more.

K: BRB, waiting for The Doctor to turn up, because this shit is straight out of Waters of Mars…

Sweeney: At Wolfram & Hart, DDK congratulates Lilah on getting Angel one step closer to the dark side with the whole smothering-one-of-his-closest-friends-with-a-pillow thing. Lilah’s not taking his compliment because when a colleague tries to pat her on the back she checks for the knife. This conversation doesn’t appear to serve much purpose beyond establishing them both as characters who will be in this episode that also know all the things and still have a rivalry, of sorts.

Brooding Hotel. Angel is sitting at Wesley’s desk. Fred and Gunn are looking in on Angel and she says it’s weird to see him there instead of Wesley. She wishes that there was a way to come back from that, but Gunn thinks that there is no coming back from that and that Angel might just kill him on principle. I’m with Fred in the general arena of doubting that, especially if the gang played a role in making that peace happen. But Gunn’s the most obvious person to be the voice chanting that trust has been broken forever.

K: I’m with Fred, but I also think there needs to be some kind of cooling off period involved before you start trying to put the group back together again. Especially after attempted murder.

Lor: Agreed. Homeboy can’t even see snow globes at the moment with out drowning in feels. I think a cooling off period is best for all involved.

Sweeney: Fair and true. Their conversation was making up or not, without recognizing the third option of making up eventually.

Cordelia and Groo are making another pass at scrubbing the pentagram with no success. She sends Groo off to dump out a bucket and Fred pulls her aside to talk. Cordelia cuts her off before she can even make her request saying that she can’t and won’t talk to Angel about Wesley. Fred points out that Cordelia has known them both the longest. Cordelia concedes that while Angel might listen to her, he doesn’t want to hear it right now. Fred is trying to make her focus on Wesley’s feelings, but Cordelia says that Angel’s feelings are the only ones she cares about. Naturally, that’s Groo’s cue to appear. She then has a quick, painless vision of Angel being thrown across the lobby, just as Angel appears at the lobby desk. A second later Lorne (wearing a fedora) enternounces that the juice bar across the street is being torn up by a crazy man.

Lor: The painless vision confused me for a second, even though she was conveniently in the middle of a speech about painless visions. That’s going to take some getting used to.

Sweeney: The whole gang goes over to find the last remaining customers fleeing and Sunday Walk-In looking even gnarlier and downright zombified. Angel recognizes him, but adds that he didn’t look like that in the morning. Fred finds his wallet and IDs him. Angel tries to talk the guy down from the juice binge, but he just shouts, in a demonic voice, “WE’RE THIRSTY!” He starts to attack but Angel knocks him out and eagerly announces that they have a case.

They carry SW-I to Brooding Hotel and Fred goes off for water while Angel, still a touch too chipper, muses that the guy kept referring to himself with a plural pronoun. Cordelia’s trying to cut off the amusement to focus on the vision of him being in danger, because The Powers That Be Contriving don’t send her those messages for no reason. Just as Angel is telling her that he’d rather think about somebody else’s problems, Sunday Walk-In stands up and points at Angel, telling him that this is all happening because of him. “This is all your fault.” Then he collapses onto the pentagram and his head crumbles to dust.

K: Womp womp. I’m guessing that was a little bit more than SW-I bargained for when he turned up wanting help to find his missing dog.

Sweeney: After a Not Break, Angel’s trying to figure out how it’s his fault. Lorne steps up to note that it wasn’t the SW-I talking, but the Crossover Magic Slug Thing, which scurries out of Sunday Walk-In’s clothes and out of sight. Angel is trying to figure out what it is or what it could possibly have to do with him but Cordelia notes the obvious fact that SW-I died in the middle of the pentagram she just mentioned might have some unpleasant repercussions.

Later, they divvy up tasks. Groo and Angel exchange weapon-size-but-actually-dick-size quips. Angel assigns Fred to the research task, but she’s taken aback, insisting that she doesn’t even know where to look. Angel awkwardly tells her where to look, specifically saying that it’s a consequence of using dark magic. (SO IT IS THE CROSSOVER MAGIC SLUG THING!) Cordelia says wants them to slow their roll on going looking for a thing to kill until after the research has happened, but as per usual for the Buffyverse, the eponymous hero wants to get with the smashing.

Angel and Lorne are walking the halls of the hotel and Lorne’s getting his I-told-you-so on and there are a few more mentions of “a price” but still no “the.” YOU’VE GOT TO EARN THE STAR, KIDS. (K: Truth. We can’t just hand these things out like lollies.) Angel says that in spite of the fact that the spell didn’t do shit for him and he still doesn’t have his son, he would absolutely do it again because it was his son and he had to do everything he could.

They make their way into a room where they hear weird gulping sounds (relevant because Cordelia earlier informed us that the Crossover Magic Slug Thing drank all the fluid from a man’s body.) Sure enough, it’s gulping from the toilet. Lorne accidentally knocks out a light. In the dark, they manage to stab it to the floor, and they’re proud of themselves for a hot second, but then it manages to get away because any idiot could tell you that Crossover Magic Slug Things don’t play by the rules of earthly physics. Duh.

Downstairs, Fred is freaking the fuck out because she hates this. Gunn also hates the thing, but that’s not what she’s talking about. She hates this because all this demon stuff is confusing and she knows All The Science but not demon things. This annoys me. I get that we’re highlighting that Wesley is important but (1) Wesley contributes more than just research skills -and- (2) The Scoobies got their ancient text research skills on as high school students. It feels like they are undermining Fred’s abilities in order to make that point and I don’t like it. I’m going to choose to believe that she’s pretending to be worse than she is in her personal quest to prove how much they need Wesley back.

K: While this is an excellent point, I’m going to go with the theory that it’s like me and cooking – I know how to do it, and am pretty good at it for the most part, but considering my dad does most of the cooking at home, I rarely use the skills. Therefore, when my parents go away, I have a tendency to burn things and melt plastic utensils and almost chop off my own finger. Wes has been responsible for most of the research for the past two seasons. The others are capable of doing it, but don’t quite remember how. You know?

Lor: A good explanation as far as explanations go, but it still feels heavy handed to me. It plays too much like, “READING IS SO HARD.” and coming from Fred, it’s weird. We could also argue that Wesley had very advanced, pedantic books where Giles was handing out Demons for Dummies to the Scoobies.

Sweeney: I appreciate all the theories. I think your comment here – that it plays like, “UGH, READING!” is what rubbed me the wrong way about it.

Gunn turns around to assure her that she is going to figure it out and they will manage, but unfortunately (contrivantly) this means he misses more Crossover Magic Slug Things appearing from the air above the pentagram.

W&H. Lilah receives a confidential email (computer screens on this show are HILARIOUS) that requires her to enter a password. In order to do that she has to get out a safe and do a bunch more password crap to get at a spider which will type the password for her. LOLWUT? Nope, sorry. No message I receive is important enough for this.

K: Seriously. A magic tarantula that a) can survive locked in a box for indefinite periods without food or water or light and can type in passwords? This is a new and horrific low.

Lor: “Did you get my super secret email?” “Oh, the one I have to open by magic tarantula? NOPE. BYE.”

Sweeney: The email is informing her that the Fang Gang is researching Crossover Magic Slug Things, aka dark magic consequences. Just then DDK barges in and asks if she received this confidential email. He’s there to gloat about the possibility that the Crossover Magic Slug Things – a product of the spell Lilah helped him cast – could kill Angel, which would upset the senior partners. Lilah begrudgingly realizes that this now means her job is to go save Angel.

Groo and Cordelia are going through the halls and Groo brings up the thing he overheard her say earlier. Oh good, I’m glad we didn’t drag out this out into a misunderstanding plot. Cordelia not-entirely-helpfully clarifies that Angel’s feelings are her work priority and Groo is her “other stuff” priority. Um, OK, Cordelia. He gets a scary look on his face, but when he tells her not to move, she realizes that it’s a Crossover Magic Slug Thing [CMST] and she quickly swings at it behind her, but it gets away.

They open a door and find Lorne and Angel, saying that they saw the CMST. Downstairs, the full gang is discussing the fact that there are probably multiple CMSTs roaming about. For some reason I don’t entirely follow, they conclude that they’re easier to kill with the lights out.

K: Not easier to kill, just easier to see. Apparently they glow in the dark, because of contrivance.

Sweeney: Oh! Got it. Makes sense. Thanks for the spooky darkness, contrivance!

Fred extra hates this, but she gets to hang out in the office with a lantern, which isn’t all that much consolation.

The others turn out the power and then we cut to Fred, sitting over the books with a CMST crawling on the wall behind her. She turns around and it latches onto her face. NOT FRED! We see the others busting their way through the building before Gunn returns to Fred in Wesley’s office. She lets him in and then sits down, gripping her head and saying she’s very scared. He’s not catching on, and talks about how great it would be for them to get a vacation like Cordelia and Groo when this is over. She tells him that he has to get out of there and smashes the snow globe so she can drink the fluid from it. Gunn realizes what’s going on just as she looks up at him, split lip, and says, “We’re thirsty.

K: Ew. Almost entirely unrelated story: as a kid, I had a Santa snowglobe. Given that it had Santa in it, it lived in the box of Christmas decorations and only came out to play once a year. One year, I pulled it out and there were big strings of green mould/algae through it, and my mum insisted (rightly) that we throw it out before everyone puked. I’ve never been able to look at snowglobes quite the same. So the thought of Fred drinking the contents of one made me gaggy.

Sweeney: Gunn and Fred find the others. Fred is mostly focused on the thirsty, but she gets lucid when Angel talks to her. (L: There’s an interesting moment where Gunn’s all, “she won’t respond,” and Fred’s all, “ANGEL?” Angel is making all the boyfriends jealous this episode.) She explains that she can’t go out to a hospital because she can feel that the thing really wants to get out and kill. Her voice gets low and ominous as she looks at Angel and says that it really doesn’t like him. Gunn tries to take her out of there, and Angel says he can’t do that because Fred would feel terrible if he did that and more people died. Gunn rightly acknowledges that this is ultimately Angel’s fault. Their fight is interrupted by Groo saying that the sounds are coming from under the floor. They start hacking away at it and the whole gang crowds around the whole in the floor. It’s a whole glowy CGI pool of Crossover Magic Slug Things.

They run, but they’re legitimately everywhere. They find themselves in the big hotel kitchen as Fred moans that she can’t run anymore because it’s too hot. Angel decides to turn on the ovens to cook the air so that the CMSTs won’t want in. Then Fred screams, but not because of the heat: Gunn’s disappeared.

K: Probably went to sell his soul for another truck. Too soon?

Lor: What do you think?

Sweeney: W&H. Lilah is on the phone issuing orders. DDK arrives to gloat. Lilah sends her last two dudes on their merry little way. Lilah was trying to get this all handled before Linwood found out, but obviously DDK tipped him off. Having recently been tortured by Angel, Linwood is more on the, “Let them die,” train and will make Lilah pay for the unauthorized ops out of her own salary and dole out some sort of punishment upon his return.

Gunn pounds on Wesley’s door. He opens it, scruffy and haggard looking. Gunn says they need his help.

Back in the kitchen, Angel is dragging Fred aside to talk to the CMST inside of her. “We’re thirsty,” she says. Angel begs Fred to help it talk and explain what it wants. “To live, to drink, and be merry.” She does a brief crazy laugh and says that they have to get out and flee because it hurts. Lorne notices that she’s dropping the plural pronoun. Fred continues about a destroyer and bringer of pain. He asks what it wants with her, but she clarifies that it’s coming after Angel.

After a Not Break, Gunn is inside Wesley’s apartment trying to explain what happened. Wesley’s wearing sweatpants. They’re his version of Buffy’s Overalls of Overall Sadness. He solemnly says that Angel will figure out a way to kill the things eventually. Gunn says he needs to know how to get them out of a person. Wesley still refuses to help, but when Gunn says it’s Fred, he sighs a bit and grabs a drink. Gunn says that they don’t have time for this because she’s dying. Wesley goes on to say that he was dying, having his throat slit and whatnot. He fought to live so that he could see the people he loved and trusted and explain his side of what happened. He tosses the bottle to Gunn, saying that they know nothing and that he’ll help because it’s Fred, but none of them should come there again.

K: I kind of hate this. I mean, I get that Wes is pissed about everything at the moment. But DUDE. You pretty much brought this on yourself by not using your words. And to be all “No, fuck off and die” until you find out that it’s Fred who’s in trouble? Dick move. 

Lor: I guess on this side of survived and alone, Wesley has a new version of events. I don’t blame him for being pissed at how things happened when he really had good intentions, but I figure he’d know where the others were coming from. He did give his boss’s baby to their sworn enemy.

Sweeney: Kitchen. Fred’s looking extra zombie/dead. Angel says they need to get Fred to a hospital as they no longer have time to worry about not infecting the world. They need to keep her hydrated while they work on a cure. Not sure why they couldn’t just keep her on a steady flow of liquids there in that kitchen. Seems like she could die on the trip to the hospital at this point.

Angel’s filling up a sink, as part of his master plan to buy time. They open the doors and the CMSTs enter. Cordelia refuses to go – she stays to fight with Angel. Groo sees this and continues out with Fred in his arms. As Lorne and Groo are about to leave with Fred, Gunn returns with the bottle from Wesley. He tells them to hold her so that he can force her to drink it.

Kitchen. Cordelia and Angel are fighting off the CMSTs. One latches onto Cordelia’s arm and they’re both stunned and confused.

Upstairs, Fred continues to drink until she eventually hacks up the CMST. Groo is ready with a sword to kill it while the others sit by her side.

Kitchen. Cordelia gets crazy glowy as the thing latches onto her. She asks Angel what’s happening but he’s got nothing. She eventually explodes GLOWtasticness. We see it in the whole hotel, including the lobby and bursting out of the windows. It stops and the lights come on. Lorne asks what the hell just happened as Angel enternounces that it was Cordelia. She feels fine.

K: What. I was on board with BAMF Sword Fighting Cordelia. Magical Glowing Cordelia I have issues with.

Lor: I… I’m not even sure what happened. She glowed them to death? Is she a disco ball demon? An angel demon? A blinding light demon? WHAT IS THIS?

Sweeney: I DON’T KNOW. IT WAS WEIRD.

Angel asks how Fred is doing. Gunn tries to say that he just got the idea to dehydrate the body and force the slug out with alcohol. Then he gets really defensive about how he had to go get help because someone he cared about was dying. Angel says nothing through all of this and Gunn eventually realizes that Angel does understand and they’re good. Lorne’s jumps in to note that “The Destroyer” is on the way and this makes them decidedly not good. Fred sits up, anxiously remembering that The Destroyer is coming and she thinks that’s going to happen now.

Lightning begins to strike over the pentagram. A crazy large gross demon appears, but it’s misdirection because he’s quickly killed by what follows – a teenager dressed like Rufio. He holds up his arm, which has some sort of gun attached to it, towards Angel and says, “Hi dad.” End credits.

Welp. The batshit crazy continues! I’ve been trained to expect all things on this show because shit never makes sense. I’m going to assume that introduction means Connor’s not excited about this reunion and we’re going to have infinity episodes with epic teenage angst. Like, I hated my dad because he made me move in high school. Imagine if you blamed your dad for your growing up in the darkest of the hell dimensions? Angst on steroids! Just a guess. Thoughts/feelings on this pending confirmation/denial.

I enjoyed this episode. Maybe because I was excited about the subtle bit of crossover magic, or the fact that there was so much going on. It also had a lot of that family stuff I love so much, albeit down one member.

So let’s talk about the one scene that I expect will be a popular discussion topic. Unfortunately, it seems like the fates are bound and determined to give me views that alienate people. Let me start with the opinions that I think you’ll agree with and work my way down to the bit that’s going to make you angry, OK? Gunn’s little bit about not wanting to be there in the first place was rude and unnecessary. I had started to say that I liked that Wesley was being brought back into the fold by way of being truly needed, because of how he checked out after the misogyny demon. I withheld that thought, thinking it would be better down here. Then it turned out that I was misreading where this was going entirely.

I get that Wesley’s upset, having been left for dead in that hospital. Cordelia probably should have gone to him. Fred should have held off on the latter half of her speech, at least until he was home and had the capacity for speech. That said, I’m not willing to excuse his reaction based on that. Things got to this point because of his refusal to open up to anybody or talk to any of these friends he supposedly loves and trusts. He shut them out and is now mad at them for letting him do it? It’s a rough situation and there are feels to go around here, but I’m not sure how to process Wesley’s reaction here.

K: Team Heartless Cow is living up to its name and has no feels for anyone. BRB, moving my ottoman over to the asshole corner.

Sweeney: As for the rest of the episode: I didn’t like Cordelia’s whole, “ANGEL’S FEELINGS ONLY” speech. I love everything else about the way she and Angel interacted, but that bit seems like a weird bit of nonsense inserted only to advance Wesley’s weird new rage arc and their romantic subplot, which I was already pretty #meh on. Feeling like she threw Wesley under the bus for it doesn’t help. Gunn was only all right in this episode. I hate that he’s always got rigid views on right and wrong, though I appreciate that he was the one with the sense to go to Wesley for help, particularly after Fred noted that they were going to need that. Cordelia’s new glowing destruction power was weird and contrived, but I didn’t mind it. They did a nice enough job of reminding us at the episode’s beginning that we still don’t know all of what her new power entails.

Lor: Bringing it back over to the Crossover Magic, I went over to Afterlife and re-read that recap, as we referenced it above in connection to thaumogenesis. Willow, in that episode, calls it a price for dark magics, but Anya says it isn’t quite a price. It’s almost like the byproduct of dark magic. She called it a gift with purchase, I believe. AND THIS IS WHERE I GET ALL THE FEELS: what was Willow’s price for bringing Buffy back to life? It wasn’t the byproduct demon. Perhaps we just watched it happen. It cannot be a coincidence that Angel’s episode is all about a price, when on Buffy, we watch Tara die. Buffy’s life for Tara’s death.

And, bringing it back to this series, the slugs were probably just the gift with purchase. What’ll be Angel’s price to pay?

Finally, that was VINCENT KARTHEISER. WHUT. How do I manage to not know who will even be on this show? Also, this guy is probably part vampire because he still looks like a baby.

Sweeney: Ah! Excellent point about a price v. gift-with-purchase. It’s definitely implied, in a host of ways, that the price is more related to Connor. (Not the least of which in the fact that nobody would say the damn thing!) The episode is called “The Price,” but ends on that mega dramatic reveal, after even the Crossover Magic Slug Things warned that the thing to be feared was still coming. Very interesting indeed. In all, a mostly enjoyable entry in the ever-growing crazy that is this show.

 

Next time: Connor’s back, and he’s not happy. Find out who gets sliced and diced in Angel S03 E20 – A New World.

Sweeney (all posts)

I collect elaborate false eyelashes, panda gifs, and passport stamps. I earned my MA in Global Communications and watching too many YouTube videos. Reconciling my aversion to leaving the house/wearing pants with my deep desire to explore everything is my life's great struggle.





Lorraine (all posts)

I'm a 20-something south Floridan who loves the beach but cannot swim. Such is my life, full of small contradictions and little trivialities. My main life goals are never to take life too seriously, but to do everything I attempt seriously well. After that, my life goals devolve into things like not wearing pants and eating all of the Zebra Cakes in the world. THE WORLD.





Kirsti (all posts)

I'm a 30-something under-employed librarian and I still live with my parents because I'm super broke. Leader of Team Heartless Cow. I have an inexplicable love for 90s television, eat too much chocolate, and tweet about the random crap that happens to me on public transport more than I should.





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  • Clément Polge

    “He did give his boss’s baby to their sworn enemy.”

    Actually, he didn’t, he tried to take the kid to raise himself, and got his throat slit when the baby was taken away from him. Not exactly the same.

    And unsurprisingly, I’m with Wesley on this, I get that what he did was hard to accept for anyone, but nobody really cared to listen to his side of things… And they only go to him because they need him. It’s ok for Angel, but the others ? Rough. We’ve now seen him interacting with Fred (who shat on him when he couldn’t even talk) and Gunn who had no fuck to give like “whatever just give me what i need and fuck off”. I’d say he has a right to be pissed.

    “I’m going to assume that introduction means Connor’s not excited about this reunion and we’re going to have infinity episodes with epic teenage angst”

    Sadly, you nailed it. I kinda hate Connor with the passion of a thousand fiery suns. Maybe your recaps will make me feel differently though, they did for Dawn, so we never know.

    • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

      Right, but they have ever reason to assume that’s how it went down because he told them nothing. He shut them out and is mad that they didn’t come to him and say “Hey, why’d you do that?” It’s the double whammy of selfishness and hypocrisy that I find frustrating about it. We, having seen what he went through, get why he made the choices he made, but on this side of it? He knows that the prophecy was a lie and that he never told them any of what was going on.

      I’m not saying I don’t have Wesley feels, but I think his, “FUCK OFF ALL OF YOU” reaction was out of line. I had low mileage with the CrAngel arc and I’m really hoping this isn’t the early stages of CrWesley. IDK, man. I just can’t seem to get on the same page with the majority of our Buffyverse friends.

      I’m curious to see how things go with Connor! Plot twists for days and days!

      • Clément Polge

        Well they all know that Wesley did it because of a prophecy that turned out to be false, and they obviously know that he didn’t collude with Holtz (the hole in his throat is a good indication of that), but now they’re the one to shut him out, and telling him that if he ever comes to the hotel, Angel will try to kill him, and they’ll probably let him…

        But I think our difference in opinion actually comes before that: some people believe that Wesley shouldn’t have shut out everyone when discovering the prophecy, and I personally believe that he didn’t really have a choice if he wanted a chance to fight it, and that talking would actually be opting out and refusing to take any action to save Baby!Connor

        If you work out from the assumption that he should have used his words, then obviously you’re right to say that he’s being a hypocrite and a bit selfish too.

        If (like me) you think he didn’t really have a choice, then he really seems to be a victim of the circumstances with everyone just turning his back on him and not giving a fuck about said circumstances…

        So it mostly boils down to our personnal perceptions of the situation I guess, with no real answer… In world, I think we can assume that Wesley probably feels like I do, while the Fang Gang feels the other way. And Angel probably not so much thinking as feeling extra-murdery.

        (I hope I’m not putting words in anyone’s mouth, it’s just my understanding of the two perceptions of this Wesley arc)

        For Connor, I just find that extra-funny that at the beginning of the season we were all super shocked that “OMG DARLA’S PREGNANT”, and 19 episodes later angel has a teenage son and it feels totally natural. Oh, show. Never change.

        This shit actually has a name, it’s called SORAS, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoapOperaRapidAgingSyndrome?from=Main.SORAS and is usually used in TV shows where a baby disappear for a few episodes before reappearing a teenager. Except Angel actually gives an in-world explanation to this.

        • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

          I think that’s mostly an accurate summary. I take greater issue with Wesley’s failure to use his words earlier on. ALTHOUGH, I’d like to add that the hole in his throat doesn’t actually prove that he didn’t collude with Holtz – it just proves that Holtz betrayed him…which is, you know, exactly what went down. It’s not unreasonable to assume, given that Wesley told them nothing and he DID go to Holtz behind their backs, that he had been planning to give Connor up all along, but they just left him for dead to keep from coming after them or whatever else.

          Although, I don’t know. I’m conflicted on Wesley using his words. I *got* why he didn’t then, to a degree. I just don’t like his new self-righteousness in defending that choice. You’re right, though, in that being part of the discrepancy.

          It is pretty hilarious and awesome that we went from PREGNANT? to TEENAGER? and it all feels totes legit because… this show.

          • Clément Polge

            He DOES act a bit self-righteous now… But I guess that getting your throat slit and then getting attacked by your friends in your hospital bed can leave you a bit bitter, whatever the circumstances…

          • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

            Fair enough.

          • Raluca

            Plenty can be said on why Wes didn’t go to his friends for help/advice with the Connor/Angel situation before he acted in a way that turned out so bad for everyone.
            However, this is exactly why I like Wesley – it is completely human to act as he did. Humans make mistakes all the time, for different reasons. I think Wes’s reasons here were: fear, jealousy, bitterness, loneliness, feeling unfit and unwanted, depression and a bit of anger. :D All human, all stupid and all real. IMO. And the self-righteous part – isn’t that human as well?! Aren’t we self-righteous at least sometimes? Every one of us?

    • Ashlea Kobukowski

      If the recaps can make me like Connor, there’s some sort of magic woven into them. Hate, hate, hate him!

      • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

        CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

        (Kidding. I might hate him too.)

      • lev36

        Agreed! But for me, it’s not Connor himself I hate, so much as his entire storyline. I just wish they had never gone there – but I can’t say why yet cuz spoilers.

        • Ashlea Kobukowski

          I don’t like where the storyline goes either! If I’m doing a rewatch, I usually skip the Connor parts altogether. Although I guess I will watch the full episodes for the purpose of Snark ;)

  • behind blueiz

    I think using a slug to be the baddie of the week was quite ingenious. Slugs are creatures that feed off of other creatures to sustain life. Here, the characters emotions and feelings are doing exactly that. Anger, sadness, fear, hurt, and several others are controlling how everyone is acting and reacting. Emotions are the driving force. Whether their feelings are justified from an outside perspective is neither here nor there. Emotions are what they are. Right, wrong, or indifferent. To change someone’s thoughts, for the most part, is far easier when emotions don’t play a part.

    In addition, those affected by the slugs use plural pronouns was also a brilliant twist. The reason why the gang is faltering right now is that they are thinking “I”, not “we”. As we’ve seen before, when the group is splintered a whole heap of trouble ensues!!!

    • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

      Brilliant comment. Love this. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I agree entirely.

  • Anagnorisis

    I love how the previouslies just ignore the last episode. I’ts like they know
    Poor sir! But this is gross
    Gavin is still watching Season 2 XD
    Nooo! Groo :( This is going to be painful.
    So, i read somewhere that Stephanie Romanov (Lilah) was ok with filming that tarantula scene, she said it was fluffy like a kitten. Which proves she is the woman of my life and we should get married.
    I love Gunn’s phobia for rats.
    Dar!wesley is dark
    Oh, it’s Deus Ex Cordy!
    hjdahjdsakhda Connor!!!!11!!one
    squeeeeeeeeeeeee

    So, it was ok, the slugs were creepy but the deus ex cordy was way too convenient.
    I’m in the minority but I do love teenager!Connor. Haters gonna hate, bring it on!
    About Wesley, I think that he did shut them out and refused to talk to anybody but not because he wanted to, but because he truly felt he didn’t have any other option. Like we’ve been saying (lol, sorry), it was the worst moment, he was alienated by the circumstances, by Funn and Cordy not being there and was the worst timing ever. He did make a mistake, of course, but I’m pretty sure he felt he didn’t have a choice and he is angry because they don’t see that.

    • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

      Seee, but that’s my issue: he never gave them a chance to see that. He’s being selfish here too, with a bonus of hypocrisy because he’s mad at them for doing the very thing he did and continues to do.

      I’ve got a history of empathizing with mega teenage angst, so maybe I’ll join you in that minority! We’ll see!

    • SnazzyO

      Oh YAY, someone who will love Connor with me!

      • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

        I AM SO INTRIGUED BY CONNOR NOW.

        We were just discussing that we find recapping this show a little boring at times. I think my new solution is for us to institute an end-of-episode Connor-meter, at least for the two Snows.

        “On a scale from 1 to 10, how would rate Connor’s likability in this episode?”

        Find how he fares across the episodes ;)

        • Clément Polge

          You might want to look into adding negative numbers to that scale.

          • Ashlea Kobukowski

            I love this comment! +1

        • SnazzyO

          Well I thought he had a stunning entrance. So, I’ll give him an 8 for BAMF.

  • Ashlea Kobukowski

    And here we have the premiere of one of my least favorite characters in the Whedonverse – teenage Connor.

    • Clément Polge

      He’s kinda like Dawn, with the legit trauma and everything, but just like Dawn, I just can’t seem to give a shit for teenage angst. A bit less shriek and a bit more battery & assault too.

      • Ashlea Kobukowski

        Completely. I get that they have been through some things, but maybe I would have more sympathy if their characters weren’t so damn annoying. I’ve lost that with Dawn, mostly, and just attribute it to MT’s acting. In Connor’s case, I find myself wanting to throw him off of buildings. And then there’s the WTF-ery that happens in Season 4. Vomit forever and I hope you know what I’m talking about cause I have no idea how to rot13 ;)

        • Clément Polge

          Haha of course I know, but i actually like that ! Storywise only, obviously.

          To rot13 is pretty easy, you just go to http://www.rot13.com, type your text in the box, and just click cypher. Decyphering and cyphering are actually the same thing (basically, under the engine, it’s mirrored, so if b are turned into x for instance, x will be turned into b…)

          • Ashlea Kobukowski

            Thanks for that! I was seeing all this gibberish on the comments with no idea how to translate.

          • http://stephaniec.tumblr.com/ stephynee

            If you’re on Chrome, there’s a rot13 addon which lets you highlight and translate on the page. It makes life a lot easier.

          • Clément Polge

            Thanks for the tip, I didn’t know that !

          • http://stephaniec.tumblr.com/ stephynee

            https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/rot13er/inahkpchejeplgfdemgglnbgimfjpajk For everyone who is too lazy to open new tabs and copy and paste.

          • Alex

            That is bloody BRILLIANT. Thank you!

          • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

            REALLY? This is an amazing tip.

        • http://www.saraswearsalot.blogspot.com/ Sara

          Season 4 is CRAY. I’m really looking forward to the recaps, because I imagine there will be a ton of WTFing.

          • Ashlea Kobukowski

            I agree! The reactions to Season 4 will be amazing.

          • Melbourne on my Mind

            FYI, mine will mostly be “UGH”. Mostly.

        • lev36

          Vomitrocious indeed.

    • Melbourne on my Mind

      CONNOR IS THE WORST.

      • Ashlea Kobukowski

        A tip of the hat to you fellow Connor hater ;)

    • Alex

      Poor Connor! He and Dawn need to get together and have a ‘why does everyone hate us?’ teenage angst party.

      • Ashlea Kobukowski

        That would be the worst party in the history of EVER. Dawn would have to trap everyone again to get them to stay. Connor would wear his lovely animal skins. When everyone left, he could teach her how to run across rooftops and she could teach him the ins and outs of shoplifting. Then they could throw tantrums together.

        • Meagan Malachite

          This all just sent me on a “what if Connor and Dawn got together and Buffy ended up back with Angel? Then like, Buffy would be Connors sister in law but also stepmother, Dawn would be Angels daughter in law and sister in law, Angel Dawn’s father in law and brother in law, Connor Buffy’s stepson and brother in law. And this all went through my mind so fast that I wanted to share. I think they’d be cute together, having just met Connor.

  • Policy of Madness

    The clear demons didn’t read “slug” for me, instead they read “Amano shrimp” which are totally cute and so I didn’t get the creep factor that they were obviously trying to induce in me.

    I like Wesley’s arc thus far. He went from the height of his connection to the group, an integral member, to a complete outcast in like 3 days. He has no one to blame but himself. This is not something that happened to him, it’s something that happened because of him, because of who he is as a person. It’s Greek and I like it.

    I also like the implied (but afaik never stated, although maybe someone will say it later) message that you should probably live your life based on what you see in front of you rather than on something you found in a book that was written thousands of years ago. There’s a statement about religion in that, cleverly hidden. The whole “ancient prophecies” thing has struck me as profoundly lazy storytelling all along and I’m actually pleased at the neat twist inserted into this incarnation of it.

    • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

      I didn’t actually get slug but Fred called them slugs right around the time I was officially “naming” them so that’s what I went with.

      Interesting insights on everything else! The show’s reliance on ancient prophecies as plot device had reached a point where it was downright lazy, and it’s nice that they finally put a twist on that.

  • darkalter2000

    I never liked Connor that much, mostly for reasons I’ll talk about later (not baby!Connor, he was fine), but I could easily see myself being moved in either direction. Hate or Understanding. Call it in the air.

  • Jojo

    But who could Wesley talk to? Angel was tripping – bouncing around, calling Connor a snack, yelling about the baby crying. So if Angelus was ascendant – if there was any chance of Angelus – pissing off Angel by questioning whether he was gonna kill Connor would be enough to kill Wesley and still not save Connor. Asking Angel to sing for Lorne might tell what’s gonna happen that week or that month but not what will happen in a year – besides when Wesley hummed, Lorne didn’t even pick up on his fear that Angel would kill Connor.. Including FredGunn would only make things worse because those two can’t deceive for shit – so even more people at risk. Wesley took every opportunity to prove the prediction false. He had no idea that he was being played by a centuries old demon. And Wesley is about doing what is right – no way could he just sit back and let Connor die.

    He tried to rescue the baby – he was attacked, had his throat slit, and was left to die. That was his part in the entire debacle, and I think it’s not right to pin the entire thing on him. He didn’t give the baby to Angel’s sworn enemy, so let’s not load that on him. After two days lying in his blood, Wesley is hospitalized. And while he is still not necessarily going to live, and unable to call for help or barely breath, Angel tries to smother him. Angel is pulled off and fights his way back to smother Wesley again. Then Fred comes and tells him to never come back and never try to see them again. This means Wesley can’t explain, can’t atone, can’t help.

    I can kinda see him telling Gunn to leave – after being told he wasn’t allowed to go back or see anyone, he’s asked for help by someone who treats him like dirt, says he doesn’t want to be there or hear anything Wes has to say, and makes it clear that he is just being used for information and will never be forgiven at the same time.

    I kinda see where Wes is coming from. But that’s just me. YMMV

    And Connor is here – the most loathes regular in the Buffyverse – but I kinda like him.

    • Alex

      I agree. I totally get Gunn being angry with Wesley but from everything we’ve seen of Gunn, I am disappointed that he didn’t actually go to Wesley to hear his side of the story. Turning up and instantly announcing ‘I don’t even want to be here’ was way harsh, Tai.

      • Jojo

        I wish Cordelia had gone – I mean they were closest of all. But it’s a moot point now.

    • Meagan Malachite

      Thanks for voicing some of my own perspectives in this–I honestly cannot stand the way they are treating Wesley right now. He got so played and his consequence? Slit throat and lifetime of guilt.

      He did not hand the baby over to Holtz. He would have been dumb to trust Holtz–but he didn’t! In fact he took the baby out of there before Holtz’ “24 hours” probably because he knew it was crap.

      What happened with Justine at the park could easily have happened if Wes’ story about just hanging out with him at the park were true. If he really had just had Connor for a sleepover, the kid still could have gotten killed or kidnapped. I can’t stand how they don’t seem to see that he has suffered–is suffering–more than enough. He made a mistake-a big, gigantic, terrible mistake–but that is not the same as doing this on purpose, and I actually do agree with him that they should give him a chance to explain. Cordelia especially, it seems either OOC or just a poor reflection on who she is that she doesn’t want to know Why?

      Ok, /

  • SnazzyO

    First off, let me just be clear. CONNOR IS MY FAVORITE CHARACTER. You think I defend Xander? Ha! Stand back. Just saying.

    Having said that, I think it’s hilarious that the love child of Angel and Darla is Pete Campbell.

    Wes, Wes, Wes. I understand his snit but feel his bitch was inappropriately timed. I feel he is MOSTLY a victim of Sahjahn’s false prophecy’s, good intentions, and Whedoncontrivance (Cordy’s absence) BUT he did let his sense of isolation over Fred/Gunn drive him into not sharing his concerns. So, he should have helped Gunn without bitching and should have stayed in timeout until he and Angel could deal. So… I’m mostly on the Ottoman of THC but I’m eyeing the FEELS couch.

    • Clément Polge

      Well your XDF always made for an interesting read, even the times I didn’t approve, so I’m actually quite excited to read your CDF ;)

      • SnazzyO

        I shall strive to not disappoint!

    • Jojo

      But who could he talk to? Besides which, Gunn just showed up and said he didn’t want to be at Wes’s apt or listen to anything Wes had to say but that Wes had to help right now anyway. So you think Wes should just do what Gunn wants without complaining, and then sit in timeout until Angel has time to bitch him out? I completely disagree. We are also kinda completely ignoring the fact that Angel did try to murder Wes a few days ago. He’s also not even supposed to have feelings about that?

      I think Wes has every reason and every right to act as he did. But I assume I will be in the minority again. YMMV

      • Clément Polge

        Some believe that he could have talked to either Gunn or Fred, while I personally disagree, there’s no way of telling what would have happened, and maybe doing so might have avoided the catastrophe (especially with Fred IMO).

        From that POV, everyone has a good reason to be mad at him: Gunn and Fred can see that as a betrayal/lack of trust, and Angel, well, he lost not only a son, but the only son he could never have hoped to have…

        I also thought Gunn came off as a dick in this scene, but I also understand where he’s coming from: he doesn’t really have time for pleasantries (what with people dying and all) so he has to go for effiencency over diplomacy… Again, you may argue that’s a shitty call, but maybe diplomacy would have taken too long and Fred might have died.

        • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

          Nah, the terseness I get, because of all his other feelings. Bit dickish that he was only willing to help because it was Fred. Mostly, the line about wanting to get to come tell his friends what happened while telling them to fuck off. That was the part that rubbed me the wrong way. The rest of his rage I can sort of sympathize with, because it’s still pretty fresh. A general cooling off period is still necessary on all sides.

          • Clément Polge

            I don’t know if he was willing to help only for Fred… I think it’s just the difference between “there’s a danger” and “there’s a danger threatening ” which just makes it all the more real. He probably would have helped for Lorne or Angel or Cordy too…

          • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

            Ah, yes, legit point.

          • Raluca

            Since we cannot talk about the future, and I am a bit tired of rot13, we’ll discuss his “helping out” if and when the time comes.
            For the time being, I see Gunn aware of Wes’s feelings for Fred and using them to force him into helping, and Wes’s reply is as bitchy as Gunn’s attempt. Playing on someone’s feelings to get them to do things is very “not nice”, so I tend to give Wes some slack for his reply, which I see more like “You are aware of how I feel about her, you of all people, and you try and use that against me, to make me do something I do not want. By helping out, I hereby acknowledge my feelings and also GTFO and never come back!” :)

          • Alex

            I think I see all sides here. Wesley’s whole situation is kind of a perfect storm of badness – there are SO many factors which combine to bring him to this decision. He was being horribly manipulated by Sahjahn, but if Cordy hadn’t been on holiday, or if there hadn’t been so much tension between him and Gunn/Fred, then who knows what he would have done? Maybe he would have said something, or maybe he would still have said nothing. I’m really not sure. If he’d told someone, he would not only run the risk of that person trying to stop him, but also the risk of putting Connor in even more danger if someone else found out. After all, he now knows that up until recently Wolfram and Hart were recording their every move with hidden cameras!

            I don’t think that what Wesley did was right, necessarily, but can I honestly say that I wouldn’t have done the same thing? I don’t think I can. Connor was like family to Wesley, and thinking that he was about to die? I can’t even imagine how you begin to decide what to do there.

            On the other hand, I can absolutely see why everyone else is pissed off with him too. And then on the other, erm, foot, I totally get why Wesley is pissed off about everyone being pissed off with him.

            Short version: I think this is one of those brilliantly set up and written situations where I just cannot decide who’s right and who’s wrong, and that’s kind of awesome, in a very very sad way. Yes, there’s definitely been some contrivance involved to get us here (Fred in the hospital, Gunn being inexplicably insensitive towards Wesley re. Fred) but overall I think it really works.

          • Raluca

            Objectively, I do not take sides. In reality, I side with Wes, in the sense that I feel his pain more.

          • Alex

            That’s a perfect way to put it, and that’s exactly how I feel too. I think a big part of it is seeing that Wesley has absolutely no-one right now, whereas at least the rest of them all have each other.

          • Jojo

            Perfect – there is enough good and enough bad to go around. Just one thing – as much as he was trying to save Connor, he was also trying to save Angel from the horror of killing his own son.

          • Jojo

            They did tell him to fuck off first, and that was after trying to murder him – and as you said it was only a few days ago so it is very fresh. I’m surprised that I’m the only one who sees the murder attempt – or rather who talks about the murder attempt as one of the reasons Wes has to be angry and bitter.

          • Clément Polge

            “I’m surprised that I’m the only one who sees the murder attempt – or rather who talks about the murder attempt as one of the reasons Wes has to be angry and bitter.”

            I made that point too. Just FYI.

            Also, it seems to me that Sweeney’s alluding to it in the very comment you’re responding to when she’s talking of the “freshness”

          • Jojo

            Not the throat slashing – the pillow being held down to suffocate him. I haven’t seen anyone else bring that up – and that’s kinda more personal than the throat slashing. I might be wrong but I didn’t see it anywhere.

            I was responding to Sweeney. She mentioned being bothered by Wes – Mostly, the line about wanting to get to come tell his friends what happened while telling them to fuck off. I agreed with much of it – disagreed with some – and responded. So, any reason my responses are being critiqued?

          • Clément Polge

            I said in an earlier comment “[...]But I guess that getting your throat slit and then getting attacked by your friends in your hospital bed[...]“, which clearly referenced Angel’s attack (Fred’s couldn’t really be considered an attack).

            Also there’s no real rage to be had towards the fang gang for the throat slit, so if that’s what Sweeney was talking about, I kinda fail to see the relevance… Hence why I think she’s talking about the hospital attack too.

            But I don’t want to put words in her mouth, just offering an alternate way to read her comment.

          • http://www.sweeneysays.com Sweeney

            To clarify, yes, the murder attempt is part of what I meant. I meant all-the-things-that-just-happened-to-him.

            The only person who said anything to that effect was Fred. The others, as far as we can see, have been staying away, which isn’t the same thing.

            I wasn’t saying that I dislike Wesley! I just found one part of it grating, but I thought Clement raised some interesting points. I have no idea what comes next, so maybe things will change.

        • Jojo

          What could either Gunn or Fred have done? I definitely see why everyone views it as a betrayal – Connor did end up in a hell dimension after all. But I also see that Wesley has every reason to be angry. Angel tried to kill him a few days ago – I can’t see him sitting around playing nice guy and just waiting to be forgiven. Like it or not, the Fang Gang also did more than a few things that need to be forgiven.

          As for Gunn, pleasantries are one thing but I don’t want to be here or to listen to anything you have to say, so just help me now and then go back to being a turd – no risk of pleasantries there.

          I’m sad that once again I like the character who is gonna be disliked. But I tend to like them dark and tortured and making mistakes. Bapr Jrfyrl naq Yvynu fgneg gurve funttvat, naq Wnfzva vf fubja va ure pybfrg pntr V qba’g guvax gurer vf nal punapr bs nal fanex ynql rire yvxvat Jrf. VQX, znlor jura Serq orpbzrf Vyylevn ur’yy or zber be yrff sbetvira.

          • Clément Polge

            Disagreed on your rot13, but we’ll get there when we’ll get there.

            “What could either Gunn or Fred have done?”

            That’s the point thought, isn’t it ? I don’t know. Nobody knows. Because he didn’t talk to them.

            MY opinion is that they couldn’t have done anything, and telling them would have complicated his idea of taking Connor away to protect him. But that’s all this is: an opinion. A belief.

          • Jojo

            Rot 13 me what you disagree about.

            Wesley’s opinion was that they couldn’t help, and telling them would be putting them in danger. So far I’ve not read a single thing that explains why this isn’t true. That’s why I keep asking. When Angelus is the threat, and the baby is in danger, I don’t think you want to talk to anyone you don’t have to. Even as far as Holtz is concerned Wesley went there to try and get Holtz to back off, and to offer to trade his own life for Angel’s.

          • Clément Polge

            Because you said the word, it’s his opinion. It’s his choice, and people like Fred or Gunn have a right to feel betrayed by that.

            And I just disagree that they’ll react this way, but we’ll see when we’ll see :) I’m actually curious to see the reactions on that.

          • Jojo

            I never said that the other characters, or other viewers, had to agree with me. I’m giving my opinion, based on the way I saw certain scenes and frankly based on knowledge from seeing the show. I do disagree with some of the comments so that is part of my opinion. But I also said YMMV. Not sure what more you think I should be doing.

          • Clément Polge

            The FIRST PHRASE of your comment is “But who could he [Wesley] talk to?”, to which I answered, because it seems to me this question does have an answer.

            Then you answered, then I answered, then you answered. Your POV being that Wesley HAD to keep quiet, mine being that he had a choice, although all options were sucky. I’m expanding on my POV, and you on yours, so we may both understand the other better. Nothing more to it, really.

          • Raluca

            I like Wesley, so you are not alone :). He is one of my favorites, but I also tend to like them dark and tortured and mistake-prone :).
            But I do not agree with your rot13 statement. I think he will be liked no matter what.

          • Jojo

            Hmmm – not sure at all once they get a view in his closet, if you know what I mean….spoilers.

          • Raluca

            My love of Wes must be great – I don’t even find that scene horrifying. I think it’s what that person rightly deserves. I know, I am a bad person :)

          • Jojo

            Given the available options, I completely agree. And I agree on the deserves. I just do think it will not be taken lightly!

          • Alex

            That could go either way, I reckon. It will certainly be interesting to find out!

          • Jojo

            I do have to say that was a moment that freaked me out on first watching!

          • lev36

            Well, most every character in the Whedonverse winds up dark, tortured and making mistakes at some point in their arc. Or the latter two, at least. One of the themes I really appreciate in Whedon’s stories is, how do you come back from that? Because we all make terrible mistakes at some point or other. Bu, naq vg jnf Whfgvar va gur pybfrg, abg Wnfzvar. Pbhyqa’g xrrc ure va n pybfrg, V vzntvar.

          • Raluca

            Yes, but some characters are “grey-er” in the sense of walking the thin line between “good” and “evil”. Wes’s journey is more interesting to me than Gunn’s, and so is his “dark, tortured and mistake-ridden” persona. Just saying… Also, Fred is not dark, nosir. She is in bad shape, almost crazy, making bad decisions, but not dark. Imo, at least.

          • Jojo

            Yes – you are right – on both accounts. But some are more tortured than others. Maybe at the end of the shows we can compare because….spoilers.

        • lev36

          If he couldn’t have talked to them, how about giving Willow a call, maybe?

          • Jojo

            She wasn’t doing magic at that stage.. Also, I’m not sure Wes knew her that well, other than suggesting she be left with the Mayor. And her research skills wouldn’t be better than Wesley’s. And Giles is in Bath.

          • Alex

            OK, I must be tired, because I just read you saying ‘I’m not sure Wes knew her that well’ and my first thought, just for a split second, was ‘but they got married!’ before I remembered that real life and the Buffyverse aren’t the same thing.

          • Jojo

            Yeah – I get you. Also they are the most fantastically adorable family. They really seem to be so in love. Thanks – I needed that reality check.

  • Jojo

    Lor – yes on magic has consequences, and bringing Buffy back set everything into motion. Willow killed a fawn and used her blood in a very powerful black magic necromancy ritual. The splash back is Tara being shot and dying. Also, once Willow allowed the black magic inside her it is always there to take over.

    • Raluca

      Yes, I think Tara is the price Willow had to pay for Buffy’s resurrection. I am sorry for her, in a way. I am wondering – would she still bring Buffy back if she were aware of the price?

      • SuzyLee

        The comics aren’t exactly perfect but on of the things I really liked in Season 8 was that they had Willow address this. She pretty much says that by choosing to bring Buffy back she placed Tara in the path of Warren’s bullet.

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