Buffy the Vampire Slayer S07 E10 – Bring the Sunrise

Previously: Spike was abducted by rage ninjas and sliced open by the First, raising “real vampires.”

Bring on the Night

Sweeney: Xander is cleaning up the broken glass, lamenting that he’s trapped in a “loop” in which he replaces the Chez Summers windows for all of eternity. (K: This is hilarious because he spends most of the rest of season 7 repairing those fucking windows.) This joke acknowledging the recurring destruction of the Summers home is obviously fantastic, but the word “loop” makes me twitch because I’m trying to learn actual code so that I can fix all the things that keep breaking on this website, but failing because it all looks unsettlingly like math. I feel you, Xander. I sometimes wonder if Snark Squad database errors are going to be ruining my life forever, too.



Lorraine: I really hope it isn’t rage ninjas breaking our website.

Sweeney: The rest of the gang is doing research, but coming up with nothing and beginning to doubt that Buffy heard the name right. Buffy insists that it’s The First and “the original evil.” Anya jokes that she heard people claim bullshit like that all the time in her demon days and it’s a nice little callback to when Buffy met Dracula. More direct callback as Buffy reflects on when she encountered The First and it almost got Angel to kill himself. That wasn’t one of the standout episodes of that season, but I’d still take that over pretty much everything that’s happening over on his show right now.

K: YUP YUPPITY YUP YUP. At least in the good old days, we didn’t have to worry about Oedipal sex scenes.

Sweeney: Xander and Anya learned that The First is holed up at The Seal of Danzar, but Andrew’s passed out now and can’t tell them anything else. Dawn decides to punch him to be sure, but yes, apparently, asleep. I’m not sure what kind of deep sleep this kid’s into if he can sleep through being punched in the face – the fact that he didn’t respond to that seems more like confirmation that he’s faking it than not.

Buffy tells Dawn to get back to research so they can rescue Spike. Dawn becomes our spirit animal because her reaction is, “That’s probably the least helpful motivation you possibly could have given me.” I’m making that up – I’m pretty sure her reaction is mostly to not getting to punch Andrew anymore, or whatever.

K: Given the choice between helping rescue Spike and punching Andrew in the face, I’d take punching Andrew in the face every time. So I like to think of her reaction as disappointment about both what she has to go do AND what she’s missing out on.

Sweeney: Headcanon Accepted. As Willow excitedly exclaims that she’s onto something, Buffy is startled by Joyce telling her that she needs to get some rest. Buffy is shaken, but holding firm, insisting that this is The First that she’s talking to. Joyce tells her she needs to wake up, then Xander repeats that command because she was actually dreaming. Xander can tell that she saw something unsettling in her sleep, but Buffy insists that it was nothing.

Some Cavern In The Vast Network Of Undiscovered Dirt Tunnels Underneath Sunnydale: Rage Ninjas are chanting in Latin. Spike’s body is being dragged by an OG Vamp. First!Spike advises the OG Vamp to kick Spike before turning into First!Dru and it’s perfect because Dru is absolutely the best persona for The First. (K: YES. AGREED.) (L: YAY DRU.) The shape shifter thing is cool and all, and they make good use of it, but obviously the best use is MOAR DRU, because that bitch is terrifying. More torture, which, even if it is Spike, 3/3 Snark Ladies hate watching torture, so apparently that’s a thing I get in this episode. YAY!

Wolf howl.

Anya and Dawn are splashing water on Andrew, and are about to try hot water when Buffy walks in and they scurry back to the couch and play dumb. This is interrupted by Andrew actually waking up and me flailing about Giles coming back because ASH’s name  just appeared as a special guest star for the episode. They clue Andrew in on the fact that The First was masquerading as Warren and he sidebars that “The First” is a lame villain name and “Lex” or “Voldemort” would be way better. I’m quoting this solely so we can use our Harry Potter tag. Buffy gets us back on track and asks to know where the seal is.

Basement of Don’t Go In There 2.0. Andrew insists that the scene is more gruesome than last he saw it, but Xander gives no fucks, what with Andrew killing his best friend and all. Andrew tries to insist that Jonathan told him he’s in a great place now; Xander reiterates that the ghosts were fake. Buffy decides that they need to cover the seal, though I’m not entirely sure why, other than setup for the suspicion-raising-run-in that’s about to happen.

K: I like to think that “Don’t leave evil shit lying around in the open” is a good rule of thumb ANYWHERE, but especially in Sunnydale.

Lor: Maybe they want to annoy whoever is trying to use the Seal. “DAMN IT I JUST DUG THIS UP. WHO DID THIS?” Probably not, but it could happen.

Sweeney: Walking back through the basement, Andrew and Xander have a fanboy flail moment, which Xander instantly regrets it. As Dawn and Buffy are trying to regroup they bump into Principal Wood, who is down there returning his shovel. He lies that he was returning it from the courtyard and Buffy lies that she’s no longer sick and also is down there helping Dawn bury a time capsule. Again I say that these basements (that shouldn’t even exist in Southern California) SHOULDN’T HAVE DIRT FLOORS. This is a brand new building! What the hell, Xander’s Construction Company? Anyway, Principal Wood asks Buffy back to work, and she insists that she’ll be there tomorrow and he says, “Good,” but the zoomy cameraman and ominous music mixer suggest that it’s not good.

K: D.B. Wood gives off a really good “Is he evil? WE DON’T KNOW!” vibe.

Sweeney: Chez Summers. Xander is trying to get Buffy to rest, insisting that they’ve faced stuff like this before. As Buffy is swearing that this is totally different, Willow’s computer does a crazy lightning thing and the Terrible Special Effects Team giddily abides the instruction which I can only assume was, “PUT ALL THE WEIRD SHIT ON THE SCREEN AT ONCE!” A possessed Willow shouts, “You only make me stronger,” and then collapses, all the magic going with her. Buffy tries to comfort her, insisting that it’s gone, but Willow’s crying, saying that she can’t use magic at all. She’s terrified that she’s going to hurt somebody, but doesn’t actually use all of words and explain the get-under-your-skin thing that The First told her.

They’re struggling to research this thing, concluding mostly that it’s supremely unresearchable. With that in mind, it’s incredibly frustrating that Willow and Dawn are withholding any piece of their interaction with The First. I understand that the things The First said were designed to touch their deepest fears and also to divide them, but it’s still frustrating that neither of them got up the smarts/courage to own up to the whole of it. I’m not sure how much difference it would make, but when there’s a shortage of information they should be sharing everything they know with the gang. It’s not uncommon for things to hinge upon a particular wording or clue, so all of that should be regarded as potential evidence.

K: I understand the not saying anything in Dawn more than in Willow. I mean, Willow’s interaction at least culminated in “OKAY, FINE, YOU GOT ME. I’M EVIL.” Dawn’s was more ambiguous, and she’s still secretly hoping (ish??) that it was Joyce. Hoping, at least, that it was Joyce with a false message. Or something. You know? 

Sweeney: Agreed. I say both of them, but yes, it bothers me infinitely more from Willow.

As Buffy is gearing up to storm after The First, in spite of Xander’s reminders that she not only doesn’t know where it is, but also can’t actually fight it, she opens the door to find that GILES has returned…with a trio of teenage girls. One of the girls [Kennedy] is all sorts of not impressed with Buffy. Giles apologizes for barging in on her, but there’s a slight case of apocalypse going around.

As they come inside I get excited because one of them [Molly] is Tru from the Disney Channel Original Movie, “Tru Confessions,” in which she plays a vlogger before vlogging was a thing and Shia LeBeouf plays her mentally handicapped twin brother.

Lor: It is a dream of mine to recap all of those 90’s era DCOMs. IT WILL HAPPEN.

K: Um, AWESOME. Also, I stop to be momentarily irritated because I saw a thing online recently that Molly was meant to be a chavvy Indian girl, but instead she ended up being a chavvy white girl because Whedon really doesn’t do POC characters as anything but a token gesture. Sigh.

Sweeney: Giles is busy talking about the apocalypse, though, and isn’t interested in my Disney Channel flailing. Giles explains that these girls are all Potential Slayers and more are on their way. Buffy realizes that her murder nightmares from the beginning of the season were the deaths of other Potentials. Snarky Prophet points to Lor for putting that together! (L: Can I redeem them for cash??)

Giles explains that their research has been fruitless in part because The First predates the written word. He also informs them that  Council HQ was blown up, but not before he snuck in and stole all sorts of important records on The First, because Giles is smarter than them and figured shit out before they did. Andrew is so into the story that he has an outburst and Buffy has Xander gag him.

Giles goes on to explains that they can only appear as people who have been deceased. Willow has her, “Aha!” moment about the ghosts, but Dawn looks more unsettled than relieved. It pretty solidly sucks either way for Dawnie — either her struggle was for nothing or the warning about Buffy was true. I imagine confirmation of either horrible truth would burn, taking away the corresponding upshots (I saw my mom! / Buffy’s not going to betray me!) to calm that internal debate. It’s easier not to dwell on whichever one is plaguing you most when it’s still a question mark.

The big Giles explanation of Stuff We Already Knew continues with the fact that The First can’t be corporeal, and only works through the people it manipulates, like The Rage Ninjas. And Andrew. Tru Confessions saw one of the Rage Ninjas, but Annabelle, the responsible British girl who was charged with carrying the important documents, tells her to STFU. The basics of The First’s plan are to destroy the Slayer line, and the Slayer, leaving the Hellmouth unprotected and the world’s balance between good and evil effectively destroyed. Now it’s up to Buffy to protect those girls and also the world. “No pressure,” quips Xander.

Kennedy hates this plan and wants to be on the other side of the globe. Buffy agrees that this is a good point, and that finding Spike is the obvious answer to their problem, because reasons.

K: Ugh. 


Lor: Are they even trying anymore? “You’re right. You should be on the other side of the world. LET’S FIND SPIKE!”

Sweeney: Nope. It’s season seven. They’ve given up any pretense of trying to explain Spike’s continued PRIORITY status.

Cavern of Torture. First!Dru creeps some more and OG Vamp tortures some more.

Downtown. Buffy’s leading Giles back to the place she originally encountered The First, which was under a Christmas tree lot. It’s really convenient that she needed to go back there at Christmastime, then. Or inconvenient because more people will be there. I’m not sure which. Buffy jokes that they should decorate the rubble when they get home and asks Giles if he’ll come for a real, non-apocalyptic visit one day, and he promises that he will if they get through this one.

Chez Summers. Andrew’s still tied up, but questioning Xander about following Buffy. Willow’s trying to sort out sleeping arrangements, but Kennedy keeps shooting down her suggestions, so Willow gives her the stack of sheets. “You better not hog the covers,” she winkwinknudgenudges and scampers upstairs. Before Willow can process what just happened, Dawn pops up to say that everyone’s hungry, but she burnt the mac and cheese. In the kitchen we learn that Annabelle is a vegetarian and confirm that she and Tru Confessions have poor accents. Fortunately for them, David Boreanaz has already set that bar so low that they’re doing just fine — comparatively speaking.

K: A+, Sweeney. Nothing is as bad as David Boreanaz’s accent.

Sweeney: ETA: ACTUALLY, YES: KENDRA. I think my mind blocked it out or something because it’s that bad, but a commenter reminded me. Point being: this show has a track record for atrocious accents. Lucky for you, Potentials With Only Moderately Bad Accents.

Downtown. Buffy and Giles arrive at the tree lot which is decidedly tree-and-personless (convenient it is then!) and just as Buffy says she’s sure it was around there somewhere, she falls through the ground. She calls up to Giles that she’s all right, just before being attacked by an OG Vamp. They fight and eventually she stakes it. This halts it for a bit, but then it pulls the stake out of its chest and Buffy panics.

After a Not Break, she starts getting her ass kicked, but manages to break off something to knock over OG Vamp’s head. She climbs up the wall and it grabs her just as she’s about to get free. Where the fuck is Giles? Just as I ask that, he returns WITH THE SUNRISE! That’s a really cool trick. OG Vamp cowers and disappears back into the hole.

Chez Summers, Buffy and Giles return to find the Potentials. Buffy sits down and asks Giles to explain what she was just fighting. He wants to do it privately, but she says that there’s no time to coddle them and welcomes them to the War Room. Annabelle excitedly grabs her notebook.

Giles explains that the OG Vamp is called a Turok-Han. They are, in addition to being primordial vampires, so ferocious that regular vampires fear them. Giles was also pretty sure they were a myth until this morning. Buffy tells the Potentials that she didn’t successfully stake the “ubervamp,” but there’s no time to rest or deal with any of that because she’s got to get to work.

Before she goes, Giles asks what her big work-research plan is, so when we arrive at Sunnydale High School, she’s executing her brilliant plan of googling “evil.” That’s the first step. Unfortunately, her boss is lurking around her cubicle and sees her Questionable Google Search of the Day: “manifestations of evil.” Buffy quickly adds “in the movies.” Principal Wood sits down and gives a heavy handed speech about not liking scary movies because you can’t unsee true evil once you’ve seen it. (That’s like the internal Snark Squad motto.) (L: *shudders*) Buffy nods accordingly. As he leaves, she asks him what type of movies he likes and he ominously replies, “Mysteries. I love finding out what’s underneath it all at the very end.

K: I desperately wish Giles had been present for this scene, because I can just see him going “Oh, for the love of God, Buffy. You spend three years researching in my library and STILL can’t conduct a Boolean search? Honestly, have I taught you nothing? *sighs while cleaning glasses*”. </random headcanon>

Sweeney: Torture Cavern. Dru creeps that Spike has to choose a side. Spike tells First!Dru that she’s not Dru, and actual!Dru was crazier than this. The First ups its crazy and writhing, before continuing to implore Spike to choose their side. Spike tells First!Dru to “get bent,” and gets some bonus face beatings for it.

Summers Bathroom. Buffy has some good Slayer Businesswear – her suit jacket has zip up sleeves! For the working Slayer. She unzips them to inspect her badly injured arm. Joyce shows up just to rattle her some more. Buffy doesn’t fight with Joyce about who she is this time. She just listens. Joyce again tells Buffy that she needs to rest, adding that there are things she can’t control, like the sun going up and down. (L: UNLESS YOU ARE GILES AND YOU BRING THE SUNRISE.) Buffy says that everyone is counting on her and Joyce says that “They do that. I’m sorry, but these friends of yours put too much pressure on you. They always have.” Joyce goes on to say that evil is all around them and Buffy can’t stop it because its in all of us. “No one can stop nature, not even —

With that, Buffy’s dream is interrupted by the bell. She asks the kid in front of her what they were talking about. “Only my life — you’re just like all the others.” Womp womp. Roger tells B his name and sulks off. Principal Wood is watching her from his spy-on-my-staff window.

Chez Summers. Xander is boarding up the window, rather than bothering with the glass. They offer some totally not reassuring words to the Potentials. Off to the side, Willow apologizes to Buffy for what happened before, using a lot of “Aaahs” and “eers” to explain. She’s sorry that she can’t help, and hates that she can’t at least do something. Buffy tells her that it’s fine. Willow insists that she needs help but won’t ever admit it. True to form, Buffy does not admit it: “I’ll be OK. OK or better – it’s like my guarantee.

The Potentials start getting antsy for weapons. Buffy hesitates, but ultimately relents and directs them to the weapons chest. While they go through the weapons, Andrew pleads with them to untie him because he swears he’s totes good now.

Buffy walks off and Giles says all the wrong things, about how they understand that she’s calling the shots and EVERYONE IS DEPENDING ON HER. Buffy tells him how unhelpful that comment was, but before he can respond, Tru Confessions runs in to tell them that Annabelle ran away. Like an idiot. Cut to her, running right into an OG Vamp.

K: I knew there was a reason why I didn’t like Annabelle.

Lor: Where the hell was the uptight responsible one even going?

Sweeney: After a Not Break, Buffy finds the body and is attacked herself. Just as it’s about to kill her, she spits her own blood into its face and runs off. It follows her nice and slow, giving her limping self enough lead time to find a new metal object to hit it over the head with. She continues to destroy the inside of this factory, dropping things on it, none of which succeed in killing it. More destruction. Things collapse on Buffy. Her body is found a little later by Xander, Anya, and Giles, horrified.

Torture Cavern. First!Dru explains that Spike is only alive because The First isn’t done with him yet. Spike insists that he will not be anyone’s puppet anymore. As the Orchestra of Feels swells he adds that he knows this because Buffy believes in him.


K: Man, why couldn’t the First be Darla? That would be fantastic AND give us new and exciting eyeroll gifs to play with!

Sweeney: Darla would be my absolute favorite persona for The First. IF ONLY.

Chez Summers. A very PTSD-looking Buffy sits on a chair, with a blanket wrapped around her, listening to the others talk in the dining room. Giles thinks she may have internal bleeding and they have no idea what to do if she can’t fight it, since Buffy was the whole plan.

As Giles is saying that he doesn’t know if they can fight it, Buffy enternounces that he’s right. They have no idea how to fight it or when it will come. “We can’t pretend its not the end, because it is.” Giles tries to calm this whole train of thought, saying that he knows she’s tired.

I’m beyond tired. I’m beyond scared. I’m standing on the mouth of hell and its going to swallow me whole. And it’ll choke on me. We’re not ready? They’re not ready. They think we’re gonna wait for the end to come, like we always do. I’m done waiting. They want an apocalypse? Well, we’ll give ’em one. Anyone else who wants to run? Do it now. Because we just became an army. We just declared war. From now on, we won’t just face our worst fears, we will seek them out. We will find them and cut out their hearts one by one until The First shows itself for what it really is, and I’ll kill it myself. There is only one thing on earth more powerful than evil, and that’s us. Any questions?

End credits. I fucking love a good BAMF Buffy speech. This one was truly all in its delivery, and it was wonderful and perfect. I’d totally have been roused to battle for a good 30 seconds before I remembered to go cower under a bed.

K: Agreed. It’s a pretty great speech, apart from the “we’re all going to die” undertones.

Lor: That was a good speech, and sure, they are going to die, but they are going to die awesome.

Sweeney: This episode had a lot of forward movement, and for that alone I appreciated it. I could have done without all the torture, and as a big development episode, there were a couple points that were inadequately explained. Other than that, though, it was a good one. This episode did a lot of set-up work without really suffering under the weight of that. The Potentials and Giles are in the fray and Buffy now knows just about everything we do, which is nice. We’ve introduced a host of new threads – what The First wants with Spike, what Principal Wood is up to, the fact that there are many OG Vamps and Buffy has to conclude how to kill them, and the impending arrival of more Potentials.

I love the entire concept of bring The Potentials into the fold because they offer this whole meta commentary on the show. In light of our recent post on casting, it’s timely to point out that Whedon used the final season of his badass teenage girl show to implement a device with which he could build an army of badass teenage girls. I fucking love that.

Lor: I really like to see the First trying all of these different ways to get the best of our heroes. I mean, I’m still not 100% sure why keeping Spike alive is integral to any plan, but otherwise, this thing is preying on fears like no one’s business. Seeing it over take Willow and her resulting fear that it was still in her was intense, despite the stupid special effects. It makes me wonder if it really is preying on fears, or perhaps tapping into the bits of evil it claims are in everyone, and that we saw fully manifesting in Willow at the end of last season.

There wasn’t a ton of Spike, as some of you promised, but his portions of the episode were definitely the weakest, despite having Juliet Landau, who is great.

I’m so happy to see Giles back, but I’m pretty sad that he’s being kind of a defeatist. I always thought of Giles as the guy who goes down swinging. Who came to stop Willow full of the magic of others, knowing that she would drain him of it. Ripper, you know. His, “well, Buffy is down! Time to die!” sentiments seemed weird to me. But, like, YAY GILES.

Sweeney: I don’t know – after everything that happened last year, I imagine Giles felt a large amount of guilt (quite frankly, I hope he did) and saw that the last big disaster (Willow…) was one that Buffy actually could not defeat. (Thinking about that finale, Buffy played a relatively small role. After Xander, Giles, and arguablly even Anya made larger contributions.) Regardless of how his relationship with The Council fell apart, that was still a big part of this life and a source of some stability in this crazy world. I take his defeatist sentiments as a nod to all that Giles has lost in recent events.

Regardless, yes, YAY GILES.


Next time: The badass teenage girl army grows and Buffy prepares to get her apocalypse on in Buffy the Vampire Slayer S07 E11 – Showtime.

Sweeney (all posts)

I collect elaborate false eyelashes, panda gifs, and passport stamps. I spend too much time on YouTube. Reconciling my aversion to leaving the house/wearing pants with my deep desire to explore everything is my life's great struggle.

Marines (all posts)

I'm a 20-something south Floridan who loves the beach but cannot swim. Such is my life, full of small contradictions and little trivialities. My main life goals are never to take life too seriously, but to do everything I attempt seriously well. After that, my life goals devolve into things like not wearing pants and eating all of the Zebra Cakes in the world. THE WORLD.

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  • Ashlea K.

    Just dropping in for a DRUSILLA FLAIL! I just love Juliet Landau. I don’t think anyone else could have played the part that brilliantly.

    It’s so good to see Giles back! Even though he’s clearly been through some shit and not acting quite Giles-like. It still gives me warm fuzzies when he’s back & hanging out with the gang.

    I’m sorry but where in the hell was Annabelle running? Girl, I get that you were scared, but maybe swipe some Bourbon or something before you go running out at night in an unfamiliar town that’s FULL OF VAMPIRES.

    Andrew is the best for pure comedic value. I just love him.

    THAT SPEECH. It’s so rousing. It makes ME want to go out and slay vampires when I can rarely be bothered to change out of pajama pants. B, you win at giving speeches.

    • Zovc

      Juliet Landau is utterly fantastic as Drusilla, and it’s always awesome to see her.

      Andrew is hilarious and I love his shared geek-out with Xander 🙂

      Annabelle kind of deserved to die for that “plan”, at least according to Darwin. Hey, maybe she can win an award 😉

      • Ashlea K.

        Like the Darwin Award of Natural Selection? Cause that would be awesome 🙂

        • Clément Polge

          Do you know the Darwin Awards are actually a thing ?


          They reward the stupidest death of the year. There was one story of a guy finding a buried unexploded missile somewhere, and deciding to take it with him, and proceeded to hit it with a sledgehammer.

          Let’s just say, the missile wasn’t unexploded anymore, and neither was the guy.

          • Melbourne on my Mind

            My favourite Darwin Awards are the urban legend ones. Because half the time, they’re LESS insane than the actual ways people died.

          • Alicia

            I really shouldn’t be laughing at that, but…

          • Ashlea K.

            I think I know people that would probably do something like that. Some people are just deeply stupid.

    • Do they never explain why Annabelle took off? I thought maybe they would come back with something? Or imply that The First picked her off? SOMETHING?

      • Clément Polge

        I think she just had the wiggins, it’s another case of “it’s always the serious ones who crack first”. Maybe the First did appear to her to help with the crackin’ before the ubervamp comes a-knockin’.

      • Ashlea K.

        I think they talk about it in the next episode but she really just freaked out and ran.

    • Can we slay vampires in pajama pants?

      • Ashlea K.

        YES. I completely support this. We can be casually dressed vampire slayers. 🙂

  • Zovc

    Well, this is basically were the season kicks off, and while I don’t want to spoil the Snows, I will say that I don’t like the speech because: A. SMG’s delivery seems off somehow (I’m more used to speeches either being shouted or at least spoken with extreme force) and B. This is but the first of many speeches, most of them unnecessary.

    I don’t really hold the not sharing against Willow, because “the originator of evil told me I was going to kill everyone” isn’t exactly helpful. That said, she needs to tell someone for her own well-being, but I doubt I would in her shoes (all of this applies to Dawn as well). Besides, as far as “not using your words” plots go, I’m a Lost fan. Do your worst 🙂

    Also, while DB’s “Liam” accent is *horrendous*, Bianca Lawson’s accent as Kendra is the worst I’ve even heard. PERIOD.

    The Principal Wood stuff is quite well-done. Is he a ScaryBlackMan or BaldBlackLeaderGuy ? Only time will tell, but bea-utiful use of the tropes:

    Nobody tropes it better

    Makes me feel sad for the rest

    Nobody tropes it half as good as you

    Whedon, you’re the beeeeeeehhhhhst

    The Spike/First!Drusilla torture stuff is a little rough, but Dru is the best possible form for the First and it leads to an absolutely hilarious moment soon.

    And Kirsti’s #randomheadcanon continues to be great, even if I only vaguely know what she’s talking about.

    Before I forget: GILES IS BACK! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH01FhqMdc8


      • Zovc

        Kinda was wondering about you guys, and I’m glad you’ve seen the light 😉

      • I vaguely remember someone telling us in comments that that accent was totally on purpose and there is an actual place where people sound like that.


        • Wilhelmina Upton

          I still live in accent free land so me no comprende.

          • Zovc

            Lucky for you 🙂 In that regard at least, since most dubs I’ve seen suck.

          • Wilhelmina Upton

            I would actually prefer to watch these in English but I only have the German dubbed versions at my disposal but you’re right, most dubbing sucks which is why I only watch shows in English (when that’s the language they are in of course) anymore. Except for Buffy because it’s old and like I said, I don’t have the English version.

          • Clément Polge
          • Zovc

            Yeah, the only dubs that make any sense to me are kids movies. Adults can read subtitles and not have it be a detriment to viewing, kids (for the most part) can’t. Plus, I’ve seen a couple of Disney dubs in Deutsch that were pretty decent, even the songs.

          • Wilhelmina Upton

            Since everything is dubbed over here we actually have a pretty decent standard for dubbing but I still dislike it. Plus some things have to be changed just to fit the joke and it’s stupid.

          • Clément Polge

            The disney songs are usually great in french too, they’re one of the few movies I wouldn’t mind watching with dubs… Because to me, the character always “spoke” french, and watching Simba talk in english just DOESN’T MAKE SENSE to me.

            And even if I do watch the new disney movies (like Tangled) in their original version, I always try to find a way to hear the french version of the songs, because see, re: above, they’re as great in both languages.

          • Zovc

            Characters not speaking the language that they would ordinarily speak is a pet peeve of mine. All I can think when watching something like Elizabeth is “You’re the freaking pope, why are you speaking English in a clear Received Pronunciation accent?!”

            The only films I’ve seen were it didn’t bother me are when all the character are speaking the same language, like Troy or Judgement at Nuremberg, which had the Germans speaking German at first, then switching to English an it was generally clear at all times which language was being spoken. Also, the film was just so good, I didn’t care.

          • Clément Polge

            The Wolf Of Wall Street has scene with a swiss banker who sometimes speak in French to the main character (because you know, even when we know english we’re sob dumb we can’t help ourself and HAVE to speak french every once in a while), and apparently the french dub took the position of dubbing the english in french, and the french in… French.

            So the banker and DiCaprio talk in french, then at some point the banker say something in, TWIST, french, and DiCaprio doesn’t understand.

            (I haven’t seen it, I’ve only been told that it happen this way, but that’s just an example of the stupid that you’re risking every time you watch a dub)

          • Zovc

            MY. HEAD. Seriously, I’d expect better form Scorsese. Also, next time your watching a English-language production, take a shot every time a foreign character says “yes” in their native language rather than English (Ja, Oui, etc.). It’s so you don’t forget English isn’t the character’s first language! *eyeroll*

          • Clément Polge


            And there ARE legit performers, Christopher Lambert is french for instance, but he just speak english with a light accent in his movies. So is Sophie Marceau in her James Bond role.

            There’s really no need for all that “foreigners can’t say two sentence in english without dropping something in their own language” trope, it’s really infuriating.

            (i might be a tad oversensitive over the subject)

          • Zovc

            Just found the worst possible version of this: In the German version of Inglourious Basterds, the Basterds speak German.

            And I don’t think you oversensitive at all. The way Hollywood treats language is pretty stupid.

          • Clément Polge

            I haven’t seen the french version of that movie, but I’ve heard that they managed to do the best of a terrible situation by swapping languages around a bit… As well as changing the nationalities of a few of the characters that make it make sense.

            But that movie must have been a dubbing nightmare 😉

          • Zovc

            Yes, I’m sure the dubbing people just started drinking heavily when they saw IB. If only there was a way to avoid the dubbing nightmare… OH, WAIT! NO DUBS! If only.

          • Alex

            I’m, erm, not sure I’d call Christopher Lambert’s accent ‘light’. But then I think the only thing I’ve seen him in is Highlander, so perhaps that’s not a fair assessment.

          • Clément Polge

            Yeah “light”probably isn’t the weird for it, but at least it’s his accent, you know ? Not something added just to make him more French-like or whatever.

            That’s all I’m hoping for, for people to have a legit try, and not just randomly spout out words in their native tongue.

          • Alex

            Oh yeah, I see what you mean – he doesn’t go around going ‘zut alors!’ and ‘sacre bleu’ every five minutes just to remind the audience that he’s French.

            (Now all I can think of is Lumiere from Beauty and the Beast)

          • Melbourne on my Mind

            That’s hilarious. Although kind of understandable if the dude was speaking Swiss French, because that shit can be incomprehensible.

        • Melbourne on my Mind

          Yes, they gave her a highlands (?) Jamaican accent and it was really authentic to where they’d decided Kendra came from, and then it aired and everyone was all “LOL, that’s worse than Cool Runnings.” Awkward.

          • Zovc

            Cool Runnings never fails to make me think of Futurama- “There was once a legendary Jamaican bobsled team” “Hey, I remember them. They came last at the Olympics and then appeared in a series of beer commercials.” “A true inspiration for the children” 🙂

    • Clément Polge


      • Democracy Diva


      • Zovc

        So very tempted to downvote this.

        • Stick around. I’m sure our anonymous downvoter will do it for you.

          • Zovc

            Ah, come on, I’d forgotten about them, did ya hafta bring them up?

          • Clément Polge




          • Clément Polge

            EXACTLY. You’re doing it to draw the attention away from you ! Just like Sophie Marceau in that James Bond movie “The World Is Not Enough”.


            J’accuse !

          • It’s ME. I’m sick of you guys having like… OPINIONS AND STUFF. Please stop.

          • They haunt my dreams.

          • “anonymous”
            TOTES ANONYMOUS…

      • darkalter2000

        Wasn’t Kendra’s accent supposed to be from a section of Jamaica where they had a different accent? I think I read that somewhere.

        • SEE! SEE! I mentioned this somewhere in these comments.


        • Zovc

          That’s what Marti Noxon said on the commentary for “What’s my Line?”, but all of her dialogue is so painful to listen to, I don’t think it matters if she did it perfectly, which I highly doubt.

          • darkalter2000

            If it is a real accent and she was told to do it that way then it really isn’t her fault. Whoever directed the scene is at fault.

          • Aw, we aren’t blaming Kendra. Just laughing at her. 😉

          • Zovc

            From what I understand, the dialect coach tried to teach her an accent specific to one region of Jamaica, and she couldn’t quite get it So I’d say the blame falls on the actress, the producers, and the dialect coach. Mostly the producers for deciding that travesty was a good idea, I mean If Ms. Lawson, couldn’t learn an accent in a couple days, there isn’t a whole lot she or the coach could have done.

            Overall, I just think the accent sucks, without trying to say “you screwed up!” to anyone in particular.

          • Melodie Hatley

            The actress took a lot of time to do the accent, and by behind the scenes accounts it was done perfectly. She even had a speech coach help her. There’s no reason to be snotty and be like, “I BET SHE DIDN’T EVEN DO IT RIGHT OMG PEOPLE WHO SOUND WEIRD ARE DUMB.”

          • Zovc

            OK, I maybe did assume a little, but in the commentary for what’s my line Marti Noxon does say that the accent turned into a hybrid, rather than any one accent. The bigger problem for me is that most of Kendra’s dialogue sounds forced because the actress was concentrating on the accent, not the performance. I did NOT mean to sound snotty, so I apologize if it came off that way.

      • Ashlea K.

        KENDRA’ S ACCENT IS THE ACTUAL WORST. “Dat’s me only shirt!”

        • Clément Polge

          It’s so good I can’t even read that line any other way than with her accent.

          It’s staying with me even more than Morgan Freeman’s voice.

        • Melbourne on my Mind

          I think part of the problem is the accent and part of the problem is the dialogue. I’m not sure “That’s my only shirt!” would ever be anything but eye-rolly.

          • Ashlea K.

            Good point 🙂

    • SnazzyO

      Yes I sang along to your Nobody Tropes it Better. And it was really a bad singing rendition on my part. But I gotta say… Principal Wood…I feel like those gals who would say “mmmm Angel” in S3 of AtS. Because dahmn. So I don’t want him to be evil but if he IS evil I want him to be brilliant about it so I can still rightly like him.

      • Zovc

        Yeah. I can’t sing worth a damn, either, so you’re in good company. And go ahead and swoon, though I can’t say I’ll be joining you (you probably don’t want to be like those ladies on AtS, though, given how annoying they are).

  • Clément Polge

    Ok, I just need to ask before reading the comments and making my own comment: WHY THE HELL IS THE FIRST TORTURING SPIKE BY DROWNING HIM ? He’s a vampire, he DOESN’T. BREATHE. Except to talk or smoke (but still not to give mouth-to-mouth ressuscitation)

    • Democracy Diva

      Your logic and reason can’t be defeated by the Powers That Be Contriving.

    • Zovc

      *HEADDESKS* How did I forget to talk about that? My headcanon is that it causes pain, even though he doesn’t breathe. I mean, getting water in your lungs can’t feel good. Still, my guess is the writers just forgot.

      • How is he getting water in his lungs… if he isn’t breathing it in?

        • Zovc

          Dammit Lor, I’m a college student, not a doctor!

        • Clément Polge

          The same way you siphon gas in a car perhaps ? I think it MIGHT be possible, through the nose, but i’m not sure…


          • His head is angled down into the water and it isn’t being sucked in by breath. I DON’T BUY IT. THEY KEEP THINKING OF WAYS TO MAKE ME HATE SPIKE.



          • Ashlea K.

            I predict that our mysterious downvoter is going to hate this comment.

          • Alicia

            Not so far! I noticed that pro-Spike comments were also downvoted in the last post, so maybe the person is just having fun being confusing. Or there’s more than one.

          • Regina

            I bet A is the mysterious downvoter. A FOR ANONYMOUS.

      • Clément Polge

        The worst part is S5 have a shot of someone trying to strangle Angel, and the dialog is this (not spoilery) :

        “You know what I’m doing now ? Applying pressure to your windpipe. You’ll pass out.
        – You know what I’m doing now ? Not using my windpipe”

        So really, that’s just stupid.

        • Melbourne on my Mind

          Especially seeing as he clearly needs his windpipe to talk, so they’re not doing a very good job of applying pressure to it.





      • Wilhelmina Upton

        YES ALL OF THIS!!!! I HAD A SIMILAR MOMENT!!! GAAAAAHHHHH!!!! This show, this effing show.

      • Policy of Madness

        I have a theory on the “I have no breath” line. It makes sense if you think of it metaphysically rather than, y’know, physically. The word “breath” is sometimes used to mean “life.” So Angel has no breath, not in the sense that he can’t inhale and exhale, but in the sense that he can’t spark life in someone who is near death because he has no life of his own to give.

        It actually made sense for me at the time I watched the ep? and it was only when I read y’all flailing about it that I questioned it. Angel is dead – has no breath – and therefore cannot restore life/breath to Buffy. Obviously this doesn’t hold up from a reality/logic perspective, as a vampire ought to be the ideal mouth-to-mouth resuscitator actually. But thinking metaphysically, yeah, it makes sense (to me).

    • lev36

      Maybe Spike is just pretending to suffer so they won’t do worse things to him… Yeah, that’s the ticket…

      • Jojo

        Actually he is laughing hysterically under the water. XD

    • Melbourne on my Mind

      YES. I made that exact point in my notes but then I commented on this post in the dark because it was like 32 degrees at 10pm and the lights were making everything hotter, so I didn’t use my notes when I was commenting. Anyway, YES. I think Whedon has forgotten how to vampire. AGAIN.

    • JEL

      If I recall correctly, according to the web it was supposed to be Holy Water and he was to end up covered in burns but the censors nixed it. Apparently they were too far along at that point to get rid of the water scene completely and so ended with something that as you all point out makes no sense. Given how TV show schedules are I guess it is not surprising that these things happen every so often.

      • Clément Polge

        But then wouldn’t the ubervamp destroy his hands in the process ? That would be a weird move to half incapacitate your own strongest weapon.

        Or are ubervamps immune to holy water ? I don’t really remember if he ever get some on him…

        (It is the ubervamp torturing Spike, right ? I’m having a sudden moment of doubt)

      • Alicia

        Yeah I heard that too. I guess extensive burns would look pretty horrific. It reminds me of the makeup they were going to use for the ‘Dead Things’ beating before they toned it down. Now THAT looked horrific. His face was so misshapen and bloody I can see why they did it.

  • Democracy Diva

    Always blame the rage ninjas. ALWAYS. Except when blaming Xander’s Construction Company. That is also acceptable.

    Tidbits that made me giggle: 1) Of course Giles brings the sunshine. He IS the sunshine. and 2) “spy-on-my-staff window.” Hilarious.

    • Zovc

      The spy-on-my-staff window is a vital element of any employer’s office.

    • Rage Ninjas are everywhere, man. Ruining my days.

  • Clément Polge

    Ok, so first of all I have to call bullshit on Giles not dying. That axe was 2 milimeters away from his neck and going full speed, there’s NO WAY he’d have time to dodge that. I get the want to build-up some tension or whatever, but that was just plain stupid.

    I also hate the whole übervamp idea, for reasons that are probably best left for later. Suffice to say that it ties in my whole “I hate how strength level are inconsistantly portrayed in this show”.

    I loved the british accent. Those guys are so not cliché either, they’re totally real characters with depth, with such deep lines as “biscuits !” and “who wants some tea ?”

    Anyway, I’m joking, but I did enjoy that episode, even the Spike bits, but that’s because I’m interested in the character, and it was nice for once to not see him all self-pitying. I like that he’s getting some self-respect, AT FUCKING LAST.

    • Meh. I guess it’s self-respect, but it didn’t play that way to me much when I kept thinking about how he really needs to have a sense of self. “BUFFY THINKS I’M SOMEONE,” isn’t really cute. Plus, the whole taken by the Big Bad and tortured, but didn’t give anything up deal was done with Glory already. So, once again with Spike: lather, rinse, repeat.

      • Clément Polge

        Oh yeah, I totally thought about this when watching the episode “Spike getting tortured by the big bad ? Now here’s something totally new and original that I’ve never seen before and isn’t used at all to make Spike look good by standing up for Buffy”.

        But despite that, I still enjoyed it, and it did show, I don’t know, the spark of self-improvement ? Sure he’s not there yet, but at least he moved away from the “i’m worthless” to “if someone believe in me, maybe i should try harder”.

        But let’s be honest, my view is tainted by my liking of the character, and I do want to see him improve, because he’s giving me a lot of “meh” and “ugh” right now.

        • Alicia

          I don’t think it makes Spike look good because it’s expected at this point. But it definitely shows that he still has that good old Spike spirit and stubbornness there inside him, which is great to see.

      • SnazzyO

        We need shots for everytime Spike is bloodied up. Look, I KNOW it’s late in the series but I think shots would be a good thing and RELEVANT.

        Someone on the writing staff loves torturing Spike. I think that’s a little TMI about the writing staff but I’ma gonna let it go.

        • Jojo

          At least this time they carved pretty patterns on his chest.

      • Melbourne on my Mind

        I miss Glory. Can we have her back?

        • Zovc

          I freaking hate Glory, so I’m happy she’s not back.

      • Alicia

        Sorry to jump in, but I think that Spike needing a sense of self is something that’s in his arc for the season, but we’re not there yet. I don’t think it’s realistic for him to go straight from ‘I really hate myself’ to IDK, having a strong sense of self separate from the woman in his life, with one Buffy speech. She’s good, but she’s not that good:D

        • Jojo

          What was it he said about Willow when Oz left – he’s holding on by a thread.

    • Alex

      Ugh, the accents. Ugh, ugh, UGH!

      On a show which has a pretty good track record with English accents (Drusilla excepted, but she’s bonkers so that explains it) WHY did they decided they needed two English Potentials and then cast two actresses with the worst English accents? Molly’s Dick Van Dyke mockney is terrible, and while Annabelle’s posh-boarding-school accent is ever so slightly better, they give her such stupid lines. I speak with pretty much the same accent as Annabelle, or at least the accent that I think she’s trying to do, and I’ve never come out with nor heard anyone else come out with a sentence like ‘Mrs. Giles doesn’t need us prattling on’. People in England don’t all talk like characters from Mary Poppins and/or Enid Blyton books, I promise!

      • Melbourne on my Mind

        I did when I lived there. But I went to school with the Middleton girls, so…yeah. (Not even joking, that’s my one and only claim to fame)

        • Alicia

          Nice claim to fame. Be proud:)

      • Alicia

        What do you think of James Marsters’ accent? I knew it was fake the first time I heard him speak. I missed ‘School Hard’ the first time around, so in whatever his next episode was I was like, who the heck is this guy with a weird, kind-of-English accent? But lots of Americans seem to be completely shocked when they find out he’s actually one of them. It’s kind of hilarious actually.

        The more I watch the series, the more I can hear every time he slips up, which seems to be a fair amount. I’ve also seen both the opinion that his accent was pretty good, and that his accent was completely terrible, so.

        Also Enid Blyton! The staple of my childhood:)

        • Alex

          His accent doesn’t actually bother me. I don’t think it’s the accent that he’s quite intending to do (It makes me laugh when people say ‘his accent his how Giles talks in real life!’ because no, it isn’t. That may be what Marsters was aiming for, but it’s NOT what ASH actually sounds like) but it is at least consistent most of the time – he doesn’t slip in and out of his real and fake accents as some people seem to do (Littlefinger on GoT has to be the worst!).

          He also generally steers clear of horribly over-exaggerating some syllables like a lot of Americans do when they’re trying to do English accents. I’m thinking of Drusilla always calling him ‘Spoooike’ for example, or the way that a lot of Americans seem to think we pronounce ‘again’ as ‘agaaaaayyyyyyn’.

          So while his accent does sound a bit ‘off’, it doesn’t scream ‘American doing a bad English accent’ if that makes sense. I find that he sometimes pronounces some words with a bit of a Northern twang to them, probably unintentionally, and I think if I met someone in real life who talked like him, I’d probably initially assume they’d moved all over the country and had a weird mixture of regional accents rather than immediately thinking ‘OMG, you’re American’.

          That was probably a much more thorough answer than was necessary, but there you go!

          Now, Wesley on the other hand… Whenever I hear Alexis Denisof speaking in his real accent it sounds sooo weird to me! I’ve got so used to him sounding English that to my ear he sounds like a Brit doing a OK-ish American accent and I just can’t get my head around the fact that that’s how he actually talks.

          • Alex

            This conversation reminds me of this lady: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drKtozox34M

            She had a whole series of videos but they may have been taken down, as this is the only one I could find. They are HILARIOUS. My favourite was the one where she taught you how to say ‘the dog was lost in the fog’, I wish I could find it.

          • Clément Polge

            In defense of Drusilla, the “Spoyyke” sounds voluntary, and I love how it sounds 🙂

            But that was interesting ! I can sort of tell where an accent is from along the big line (like, USA, England, scotland, and that’s about it), but I never know what subtlety to look for, so thanks you 😉

          • Alex

            I actually love Drusilla’s accent too. It fits perfectly with her character, but there’s no denying she sounds like Audrey Hepburn in My Fair Lady.

          • Alicia

            Omg, I watched that movie again in the past year, after only having seen it quite young. I swear Audrey Hepburn’s accent almost caused me physical pain. Also, I hadn’t noticed just how sexist Henry Higgins is.

          • Alicia

            No I love thorough answers! I always want to hear from people in the know. Thanks for your insight. A bit Northern huh? Interesting. I’ve heard that he sounds English, but not from anywhere in particular before, on some forum. There seems to be a lot of differing opinions though. The other day a new Buffy watcher on Tumblr was asking why she hadn’t ever heard about how awful the Spike accent was! She seemed really disappointed by it. It doesn’t bother me either, but especially now I know what he sounds like in real life I can hear him slip into ‘American’ at times. There’s this one line in S6 where he says something like ‘shaawp’ instead of ‘shop’. Lol.

            I think JM was going for a North London accent originally. He was in a play with someone actually from North London when he was auditioning for Spike and asked him to read the lines. Then the guy started getting interested in what the audition was so JM told him to fuck off, because the guy was a great actor and actually English! Anyway, I don’t know what North London sounds like, but yeah I really don’t think he managed it. To my ear, the accent seems to have changed a bit over the series too.

            My flatmate is English, from Essex, though he told me he doesn’t actually speak like people there. I’m not sure why. Anyway, he studies musical theatre so we watched OMWF. He said the accent was bad after literally one Spike line and I didn’t ask him again after that!

            Agreed Alexis Denisof’s accent is really good. I haven’t actually heard his real one yet though

          • Jojo

            You have tumblr? What’s your blog name?

          • Zovc

            Well, JM’s accent got better, but in Season Two, it had a distinct tendency to wander from Cockney to RP to Irish to Manchester/South Yorkshire, with a tinge of American underneath. It got better as time went on, but there’s still some inconsistency even this season. At least it’s consistently NOT American (after season four) and, more importantly, he delivers the lines naturally, unlike David Boreanaz and Bianca Lawson.

            Agreed that Alexis Denisof sounds weird in real life (maybe he should talk like Sandy Rivers all the time?) and that Aidan Gillen needs to decide where Littlefinger’s from- what the HELL is up with his voice in Season Two?

          • Alex

            I’m sure I’ve said this in the comments on GoT recaps before, but I think that Aiden Gillen can only keep up his English accent for about two sentences before he starts sounding Irish again. There was one particular scene where he had to give a long-ish speech and by the end of it his accent had completely dropped. The same thing happens with his American accent in The Wire. I hasten to add, though, that I can neither act nor do ANY accents other than my own so I have the utmost respect for anyone who can come even vaguely close to doing both at the same time!

            (Doesn’t mean we can’t have a giggle when characters end up sounding silly, though).

            I think you’ve hit the key point about why JM’s accent doesn’t bother me, though. Even when his accent is a bit off, he always manages to deliver his lines naturally and doesn’t sound like he’s really struggling with it.

            I dunno… what kind of accent SHOULD a 200+ year old vampire who’s lived all over the world have?

          • Zovc

            Woohoo, a fellow Wire fan! It’s been a while since I’ve watched Season One of Game of Thrones, but I don’t remember that whole deep-voice attempt that’s going on in Season Two, which was my big problem with his “accent”. On The Wire his biggest problem was “ay” sounds, in my opinion. Just like JM, though, he was pretty much OK by the final season. Just his bad luck that Dominic West had set the bar so high. Best American accent I’ve ever heard, and I’m including Hugh Laurie and Jamie Bamber.

            Natural delivery is definitely the key, and you bring up a good point that the vampires are probably choosing how the talk. Spike *did* say he likes Manchester United…

          • Aiden Gillen slips up enough on GoT that I catch it and giggle, so I imagine there are all sorts of extra lolz for you.


          • …for what it’s worth, I appreciate your long answer because this conversation is interesting

          • Jojo

            I love that – thank you. I always figured that was kinda what they should be shooting for anyway – someone who moved all over the country. And the century, for that matter.

        • Ashlea K.

          I seriously thought he was English until I heard him do an interview! I was like WTF is this, James? I thought he was doing a bad American accent.

          • Alicia

            It definitely was weird for me too the first time hearing his real accent. It seemed so strong! Hee, imagine if he really did go around doing other accents in interviews to confuse people!

    • Jojo

      Hmmmm – Giles is acting strangely, and he’s being very defeatist and I don’t believe he hugged anyone when he arrived, and the last time we saw him he was close to being killed….AND….gasp.

      • Alex


        Or maybe not spoilers!

        WHO KNOWS?!

        • Jojo


  • SnazzyO

    Druscilla FTW!

    This is an episode that irritates me from a consistency perspective but other than that, I think it’s got it’s good moments. I do like Buffy’s comment about the First choking on her. I think she and “K” from MIB would make a good ass-kicking duo.

    • In retrospect, I think I might have just given this episode infinity extra points for the sake of my love of the mouth-of-hell-is-going-to-choke-on-me line. I fucking love that.

  • Does anyone else find the Ubervamp’s little leather outfit funny? Kind of takes the scary out of him. Like, did he patch that up himself down in hell? That’s pretty cute.

    • Ashlea K.

      It IS adorable. Maybe he got a discount on scrap leather.

      • Jojo

        It’s the real reason regular vamps hate them, because the reg vamps are imprisoned and forced to sew leather outfits until they dust.

    • Zovc

      Hey, just had a thought: Could we call the Turok-Han “Patches”?

  • Idriss Boukhanef

    Before I say anything about this episode I have to let this out :
    I. freaking. hate. KENNEDY.

    Aaand I’m not a fan about the episode either actually. The whole Spike torture thing had this whole “be the average brave badass romantic-type hero” cliché vibe in it, and the only thing it does to me is bore me to death.

    How dumb a one-off character can be ? I guess this question has been raised to a whole other level thanks to Annabelle. Good bye, Annabelle.

    I also have a lot of issues with the arrival of the potentials (And not only KENNEDY), not taking enough screentime to be full-fledged characters on their own, but enough to take away the necessary development of the already full-fledged characters. Especially considering the unbalance already existing (Spike becoming the focus of the show, for instance). So, as I said, not a fan.
    I’m happy Giles is back and the Buffy speech is nice though, so there’s that.

    • Wilhelmina Upton

      As far as I remember, I liked the Potentials in general. Kennedy is a special case. I can never decide whether I like or hate her. In a way, she is the pushiest of them all and the most senior so she does play the commanding role with the Potentials. I just can’t make up my mind, Maybe this rewatch will help me decide but probably not.

      • Clément Polge

        Also, one of the potentials is Felicia Day. She has something like one line, and I think it’s form outside the frame, but IT STILL COUNTS.

        (she’s Vi I believe)

        • Wilhelmina Upton

          Really? I don’t even remember. Will have to be on the loookout for her then even though I’m not into her like every straight men or lesbian on the planet seems to be.

          • Melbourne on my Mind

            Vi turns up in the next episode, from memory.

        • lev36

          Yes, she is Vi, and it’s awesome that Felicia Day is a potential slayer. 🙂

          Also, I love Molly’s fashion sense, even if her accent is bad.

        • Jojo

          She’s actually one of the Potentials who has a reasonably large part – as far as potentials go.

      • Clément Polge
        • Wilhelmina Upton

          Actually, yes, sorry but she is so not my type.

    • Melbourne on my Mind

      Welcome to Team KENNEDY IS THE ACTUAL WORST. I can’t stand her.

      • Clément Polge

        She’s just SO. FUCKING. PUSHY. And when what she pushed for FOR. EVER. happens she’s whining all “waaah i didn’t want that to hapeeeen”


        • Jojo

          I hate Kennedy – and I hate the fact that Kennedy is already coming on to Willow.

      • Ashlea K.

        I HATE KENNEDY. I forgot to mention that in my comment. I also hate Rona.

    • JEL

      I am one of the rare people who actually likes Kennedy. But I feel this conversation is a bit spoilery so I’ll wait a few episodes to give my mini-defense. (I prefer to let the snows make up their own minds first.) I don’t disagree with anything already said actually, but like her anyway because of other characteristics.

      The only character in the Buffyverse that I have a hard time watching is Conner.

      • Alicia

        I like Kennedy too. I’m not particularly interested in her as a character, but she doesn’t bother me. Neither do the potentials in general except in a few specific moments.

        • Alex

          I like Kennedy too! Yay for Team Kennedy!

      • Jojo

        Good on you for standing up for her!

        • Jojo

          Just watched Showtime – and I kinda liked her at this point.

      • Alex

        I’ll join you in giving that mini-defence in a few episodes’ time 🙂

  • kat

    Okay, I’m checking out until you guys get to ‘touched’. I’m really tired of listening to u guys bash spike.

    • Melbourne on my Mind

      I’m sorry that you feel that way, but I’m not sure how leaving this comment is even remotely useful. We’re not going to change our opinions on Spike just because people are sick of our opinions on Spike. If the way he’s portrayed in the episode makes us all eye-roll or Hulk smash, then that’s what’s going to come out in the recap. And that’s not likely to change in the last three episodes, regardless of his role in things.

      • Zovc

        Upvoted for pure class and logic.

  • Wilhelmina Upton

    Buffy’s speech at the end. Whew. Gave me ALL THE FEELS! I’ve been tired and sick of fighting myself. I know the feeling even though I’ve never stood on an actual hellmouth but U did stand at the entrance of my own personal hell which is to say, I feel you, girl!

    I loved Dru being back even though I was confused for a hot second because I didn’t remember (know?) that she was dead. Huh.

    • She dies on Angel. Remember when I was all, “YOU SHOULD WATCH THAT?” lol. Nope. You should probably not.

      • Wilhelmina Upton

        I thought so, and THANK YOU for validating my life choice of not watching Angel!

      • Zovc

        Actually, I think the reason the First can appear as Dru is that Dru is a vampire, and thus technically dead. Are you guy talking about Darla, maybe?

        And AtS will get better, though it is definitely nowhere near as good as Buffy.

      • Jojo

        She died back in the 1800’s. I had the same problem the first time through – (head desk) duh, of course vampires are dead!

      • Alex

        Dru didn’t die on Angel! I mean, she was a vampire, so she was already dead, but she didn’t die again on Angel as far as I remember.

        • Clément Polge

          I don’t remember her dying either… And she does appear in the Angel & Faith comic (where’s she’s rather badass) so I do believe she’s still alive.

          • Alex

            Phew! I thought that would be a pretty big significant death that I’d probably remember.

        • Yeah, no, she didn’t die. The girls yesterday were all, “…when did she die?” and I couldn’t actually remember why I though that? And then we laughed and laughed and laughed at how we can’t remember 97% of what we watch on Angel.


          • I didn’t even question it and could not be bothered to look it up.

    • Vampire! The First appears as Spike, too.

      (I mean yes, she also dies for good on Angel. Except who the fuck knows what “for good” means because the Angel writing staff takes “we do what we want” to uncharted heights.)

      • Wilhelmina Upton

        I didn’t count becoming a vampire since that’s not really dying in my opinion.

        • Clément Polge

          Well they do die though, they die and then they’re reborn a few days (or whatever contrivant period of time desired) later. So the first can potentially appear as any vampire.

          Seeing the average vampire life expectancy on screen though, that’s usually not relevant.

          • Wilhelmina Upton

            Just thinking about that makes my head hurt so I will stop right here.

          • Clément Polge

            Well, just think about Buffy then, she died, and even though she’s now alive the First can still appear as her 🙂

          • Wilhelmina Upton

            Right, I had forgotten about that. Still confusing though!

        • Jojo

          But the First does count being a vampire so….outvoted. (Would the First get only one vote?)

          • Wilhelmina Upton

            LOL WHUT? Outvoted? By whom? Did I miss someone making you chief counter while I didn’t pay attention?

          • Jojo

            Of course I’m chief counter – what else would I be doing with all these beans? Crap – 1, 2, 3,…..

      • Alex

        I already said this to Lor below, but when did Dru die on Angel? All I remember is her leaving LA and coming back to Sunnydale in Crush, and then skipping town after that. As far as we know, she’s still undead and well… isn’t she?

    • Melbourne on my Mind

      I mean, she’s a vampire, so…yeah. Dead. Dead doesn’t mean Dead Forever, as evidenced by the fact that The First can appear as Buffy and Spike.

      • Wilhelmina Upton

        I kinda had selective memory for that one. Somehow it seemed normal for the First to appear as Spike and Buffy (maybe because it did so before we were told it can only appear as s.o. already dead?) while Dru was all WTH happened for me. I see your reasoning though even if dying and dying seem like two different things on this show. IDK.

  • Policy of Madness

    “The First predates the written word” and therefore we have no info?? I call bullshit. Fire predates the written word, but we have a lot of info on fire in books (and on the internets).

    Aside from my finding the Potentials really annoying, I liked the ep. That said, I did find the Potentials really annoying and I’m not sure how well that speaks to how much I’m going to like future eps.

    • Zovc

      They pulled the same “predates language” crap with Glory, too, so clearly someone on the writing staff is obsessed with the concept. There definitely should be more record on the First than they’re claiming, though.

      And sorry, but the Potentials will be sticking around and multiplying.

      • Jojo

        (Psst – BTW – love the icon!)

        • Zovc

          Thank you most kindly. I knew I wasn’t the only one who loves Bones.

          • Jojo

            I want a fanfic of a meeting between Spock the Vulcan and Spike the Vampire – with Bones and Giles. It will never happen but I want it!

      • Policy of Madness

        Yah, I kind of gathered that the Potentials are going to be a Thing from now on, and I can only hope and pray they improve, because right now I’ve seen about enough of them and would be happy if they all died tomorrow.

    • Alex

      Hehe, this is exactly what I was thinking when I read that part of the recap, but I never got round to articulating it in the comments. I thought the same thing way back when Glory was given the same explanation too. A LOT of things predate the written word and that doesn’t mean that nobody ever writes about them.

      I can think of at least one other occasion where this ‘predates the written word’ excuse comes up yet again, but… spoilers.

      • Clément Polge

        Especially since the written word is really not that old… I think it was invented AT MOST 6000 years ago.

        Just for comparison, our species (homo sapiens sapiens) is about 200 000 years old.

        Just for comparison too, life on our planet was already at the stade of some animals 600 millions years ago.

        And finally, still just for comparison, yo mama so old she saw the big bang.

        So year, “predate the written word” is really not that old. But I can see how that formula might appeal to *writers*.

    • I’m kind of lazy and not feeling up to the task of finding the correct spot in the larger discussion on The Potentials to put this comment, so I’ll say it here:

      The Potentials suck as distinct characters. I know I just flailed about them in the post, but I have to concede that point. There’s only one that I can remember having strong, “You. I like you.” feelings about, because they just aren’t fully formed characters.

      I like the concept infinitely more than the execution. On the whole, these last two seasons of Buffy are heavy-handed in their delivery. (Some of it just that things that were once clever grow tired after enough repetition.) That said, I just appreciate The Potentials as a way to end the series. I think it’s a cool commitment to the spirit of the show.

      I’ll probably reiterate this again in a post, but this is my big qualifier on my love for The Potentials, and why I’ll probably find myself agreeing with most major criticisms of them.

      But then, I had a soft spot in my heart for a lot of things about this show a year ago, so maybe I’ll end up hating them and retracting that statement. We shall see.

      • Zovc

        I very much agree that the Potentials are a pretty neat concept, but most of them are a mix of dull and unlikeable *as characters*. It probably would have helped if there were less of them, but that would sort of defeat the point having them. I like one of them as well, and I’d lay money we’re talking about the same one 🙂

        Also agreed that these last two seasons are about as subtle as trying to get someone attention by shooting them in the foot.

  • Jojo

    The First is good at getting into deep fears, and even better at digging up old wounds, and grudges. And it has a fetish for torturing souled vampires. This is where we get to – Buffy is right. No matter what, Buffy is right. And if the First wants you to do it – Do. Not. Do. It.

    Seems simple, doesn’t it?

  • Red

    I’d be glad to help out with programming stuff if you want, Sweeney. Not sure what language your backend uses, but I know Rails and Django and if it’s something else I can probably figure it out. So if you have database errors that don’t make sense I might be able to explain them to you, or if you get confused about general programming stuff I can definitely explain that.

    This is probably a totally weird thing to post for my first comment and I am super sorry about that! I don’t have much to say about the TV shows you write about because I haven’t seen any of them myself (I just live vicariously through your recaps). But I think you all are super funny and I check your blog every day, so if there is anything I can do that will help the site not break, I would love to do it.

    Sorry if this comes across as super weird/awkward >.<

    • Not even a little bit weird or awkward! This made my night. I was on my way out to dinner when I saw this comment and I read it out loud to my sister I was so excited. So THANK YOU. I appreciate that and might just take you up on that <3

      • Red

        Hooray hooray hooray! 😀

  • Regina

    I feel like we’re watching Spike being tortured on an infinite loop…

    • Alicia

      Sometimes I think that the whole of Spike’s season seven storyline is him getting tortured/in some kind of pain. He really does NOT have a good year.

      • Jojo

        Are we talking about fanfiction? I believe it is known as ‘hurt the pretty’ in certain circles.

        • Alicia

          I wasn’t, but I’m well aware of the existence of that genre of fanfic.

          • Jojo

            I suspected you might be. XD

  • Alicia

    Yay mummy hand callback! It’s one of my favourite sequences.

    Anya and Dawn make great partners in crime. I love their enthusiasm. Although hot water on skin leads to bad bad things.

    The shovel scene was awkward and kind of hilarious. Buffy is such a bad liar.

    Poor poor Willow. I can’t even imagine how terrifying that must have been, channelling that awful through her. I don’t actually really remember what the First said to Willow in CWDP so I have no opinion on that part. The first is definitely doing a number on her, though.

    I saw something about Molly having supposed to be Indian the other day too. It was on Tumblr. It’s possible that they just couldn’t find anyone fitting what they wanted.

    I’m always glad to see Giles again, but I must say that he’s no longer one of my favourite characters like he was in seasons 1-5, partly due to the role he plays this season, and partly because when he left I think I emotionally disconnected from him a bit. He’s really not helping Buffy by putting all that pressure on her alone to fix everything. I’m glad Xander called it out. The worst was when he was talking about Buffy being their only plan while she’s sitting there very injured and listening. I guess that’s partly why she felt the need to make her speech.

    I don’t think that Buffy thinks that Spike is the answer to their problems, but he definitely can be useful, and they need everyone they can get. It’s probably not a surprise that I don’t agree that Spike has a PRIORITY status that no other character has. If Buffy wanting to save him from being brutally tortured is special treatment, then I don’t even want to know what would be classed as acceptable, un-special and non-prioritising. Leaving him there? She’s only doing what she would do for anyone else. Wouldn’t be much of a hero otherwise, in my opinion. Obviously your mileage varies on this.

    I really enjoy seeing Juliet Landau again. She does a great job of playing The-First-As-Dru. It’s so awesome seeing her and JM onscreen together again. I love Spike’s “Get bent” moment. He’s not taking any more of the First’s bullshit. Plus the “Because she believes in me” part was lovely. It’s the next step in Spike’s development. Maybe he can’t yet believe in himself on his own, but because Buffy does, it gives him the strength he needs to fight and survive. It’s amazing what a little belief and respect can do. It’s something that I feel is now more important to him than her love. The whole thing reminds me of how much it meant to Spike when Buffy invited him into her house and treated him “Like a man” all the way back in ‘The Gift’.

    Lol at Buffy googling (or random search engine-ing) evil as her best plan ever! That was a great segue and seems so Buffy. Wood is still acting very strangely. Man, that conversation was awkward. Poor tired Buffy. It’s so unsettling to watch her scenes with Joyce. Definitely a good way to throw her off balance. She really does need to get some sleep though.

    Buffy’s fight with the UberVamp was brutal. It’s pretty scary to see her so injured and bleeding, since it doesn’t really happen. Is this the bloodiest we’ve seen her? Her speech is really effective and kind of makes me tear.up every time. SMG’s eyes look very big, and I can’t explain her expression, but it adds something to the scene.

    • Jojo

      What you said – and then what you said again. And thank you for the note on the rescue. I can’t really think of anyone she would just leave – except maybe Andrew. And Buffy – I love that speech!!

    • Clément Polge

      I don’t know if she was as bloody or if it’s just my memory playing tricks on me, but the only other time I remember Buffy getting beaten down so badly was in this episode where Giles “poison” her so she lose her powers, and she gets lock in a house with a vampire…

      To be more accurate, the final scene where she’s with Giles and she seem so down she barely has the strength to get up of her chair.

      So yeah, that’s pretty scary to see her like that.

      • Alicia

        Yeah I was pretty much thinking that of that episode too.

    • To be clear about my PRIORITY comment: I wasn’t at all saying that rescuing him from torture was making him a priority. I was saying that in this episode, Buffy repeatedly treats finding him as the answer to their problems. Other characters ask her questions which seemingly have nothing to do with him and she’s all, “YEAH, WE’LL KNOW IF WE FIND SPIKE!” That’s not “we need to rescue him because he’s being tortured” (she has no idea what’s happening to Spike, tbh) that’s “your question about the apocalypse CAN ONLY BE ANSWERED BY SAVING SPIKE.” Two very different things. Buffy wasn’t making it about rescuing him. I may not like him, but that would have at least made sense because I agree with your point here — it just doesn’t actually contradict the point I was making in the post.

      • Jojo

        He’s a source of information now – on more than one level. I think Xander would have the same priority – both that we have to rescue Xander, and that Xander should be able to tell us the answers to at least some of these questions. I also think torture of some sort would be assumed – it is the First.

        This is where you get to decide if you are following the First, or following Buffy. The First is a mindf*cker supreme. It tries to dig up old grudges, old fears, it finds openings of all sorts. It wants you to question Buffy and find fault with her. It becomes stronger with each negative choice that anyone makes. The next episodes are part of the mind game it plays as it tries to completely disillusion and destroy Buffy’s little army of the light before it can even start to fight. And the hard part is there are times when it seems clear that Buffy really is wrong. Spike, like Angel before him, is a potent weapon simply because he has chosen the light already – chosen to get a soul. All of the Scoobies would also be potent weapons, each for differnt reasons. (Imagine Willow as a tool for the First!)

      • Alicia

        Yeah I forgot she doesn’t actually know what’s exactly happening to him, apart from that he got bled. IDK, the first time Buffy talks about rescuing Spike, she says she’s worried about what the First will make him do. The next time it IS in response to Kennedy thinking they should be hiding out on the other side of the globe. That’s when Buffy says they need more muscle, therefore rescuing Spike is a good idea. I still disagree that saying that is making him an undeserved priority by suggesting that he’s the answer to all their problems. To me, she’s just saying that having him there will help. I think Buffy would get him out anyway, but hey, here’s a practical reason why it’s a good idea too. She probably doesn’t want to get into the emotional reasons, which I actually think are more what’s motivating her. Anyway, we’ll have to agree to disagree, basically:)

        • Jojo

          Still think it’s fairly obvious that the First did not send his bringers to the house to kidnap Spike to play kitten poker. 🙂

  • Nicole von St Ange

    I do actual code for a living and SQL errors are THE worst! So if you are really struggling with something feel free to knock on my Twitter door 🙂

    • THANK YOU THANK YOU. I really appreciate that and may well take you up on it… don’t be alarmed if you receive a DM to the effect of, “Y IZ BROKE? HALP HALP IZ BROKE!” because that’s about my level of coherency when the panic sets in each time the blog goes down.

      • Nicole von St Ange

        Haha it happens! Just remember the time difference, that’s all I ask! lol

  • kat

    I don’t really have a problem with Kennedy. My biggest problem however was Rona. It was like all she ever did was whine ( but then again that’s pretty much all the potentials except Vi cause hey, it’s felicia day)

    • lev36

      I agree. It’s like, “Okay, Rona, so what’s your point?”

      I know there are a lot of Kennedy haters out there, but I don’t have a problem with her, either.

      • kat

        I think a lot of people hate kennedy b/c of willow/tara. And i’ll admit I prefer the two of them over Kennedy.

        • Clément Polge

          Personally I dislike her because she’s not flirty, she’s borderline rapey. She’s known Willow for 2 seconds flat and half of what she says to her is “COME TO BED WITH ME NAOW”. The other half is “how you can do magic ? Show me a trick ! You turn super-evil ? MMM, me likey a bad girl”.

          She just never seem interested in Willow for anything else than jumping her bones, she never tries to understand her, and she’s just pushy and whiny and stupid and I HATE HER I HATE HER I HATE HER

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  • I was left wondering why Giles would just leave Buffy sitting in a chair with a blanket if he was really concerned that she had internal bleeding. Wouldn’t some sort of medical care be in order? And then she stands up and gives her BAMF speech and doesn’t seem to have any lasting side effects of getting beat up. It seemed like an odd comment from Giles.

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  • Meagan Malachite

    I can’t believe you guys didn’t mention the torture fail of putting Spike IN WATER. He is not supposed to be able to breathe!!! Angel spent three months underwater last summer!! WTF?!

    • LOL, Lor actually left a really capslocky comment somewhere down below, yelling at herself for forgetting to mention it in the post when it was written in her notes.

      Definite torture fail.

  • SonicRulez

    I love this Buffy speech and had the rest of this season not featured a million Buffy speeches, I’d probably love it more. Sadly this starts a trend where Buffy slowly becomes unbearable.

    We’re just gonna continue with nobody giving Giles any sort’ve hug or hand shake so we can do the stupid ass IS GILES THE FIRST?! storyline. Such a contrivance. I don’t buy for a second that Dawn saw Giles come back since Willow tried to eat the world and didn’t give him a big hug. Or Buffy or Anya for that matter.

    The Potentials. Hoo boy. What were the writers thinking? Let’s give a number of them terrible accents, give one of them S5 Dawn’s attitude (since that went over so well), and also start a new romance for Willow so soon after Tara’s death. It’s no wonder nobody took to those characters. They didn’t give anybody any reason to find them endearing.

    • S7 is often incredibly forgettable because they halfassed so many of its stories, but the “it’ll choke on me” speech is incredibly memorable. There’s a lot of that this season, iirc — empty vessels to get us to one or two good scenes.